Dr. Marie Heath: [00:00:00] We can intentionally help to build that bicultural identity. We want kids to know that your heritage will always be part of you, but then also being in a new culture and learning about a new culture, what that does, it just helps you to expand your understanding of how to navigate between two different cultures, like we navigate between two different languages.

Mandi: Hi, I’m Mandi Morris, your host of the ML Chat podcast, here with my co-host, Andrew Brandt. We had a really delightful and inspiring conversation with Dr. Heath today. She is the author of Strategic by Design: A Blueprint for Multilingual Programs. And just, man, Andrew, what an incredible story that she shared with us and the work that she’s doing in the field.

Andrew: My very favorite. So she’s got a ton of experience, 30 years of experience, and she’s now on the road four to five days a week working with school districts. So a lot of experience in the space. And you’d expect a podcast and a conversation about language instruction to be about language instruction, but I love that this episode went [00:01:00] someplace different, that her passion, one of her big projects right now, is something more foundational than that.

And I’m not even gonna say what it is, because I think it’ll be fun to, to have that same kind of twist that I had as we had the interview and that like gem of, yes, this is so important. I love that you’re advocating for it 

Mandi: And her work is so grounded in her life experience. That was the part I think both you and I just felt so inspired by in this conversation, that she is so organically and earnestly doing this work because it’s her own lived experience.

So enjoy the episode. Dr. Heath, thank you so much for being here today on the ML Chat podcast. We’re really looking forward to this conversation. We’re gonna talk some about your book, and we’re also just gonna talk about you and your journey, what brought you to the world of ML education. Dr. Heath is the author of Strategic by Design: A Blueprint for Multilingual Programs.

But before we even go into the book, just welcome. Thank you for being here today. Tell us some about the work that you’re doing today at [00:02:00] Seidlitz. How did you end up there? And before we started recording, you said you’re traveling five to six days a week. You are on the road. So tell us some about the, your current work, and what do you feel excited about in the work that you’re doing?

Dr. Marie Heath: Yeah, there’s a lot to be excited about. You’re right, I do a lot of traveling. I am very honored to, to be working with Seidlitz. I think it’s, it’s a dream of a lot of educators that are in multilingual programming. And like many other educators, I had the opportunity to, to attend a lot of trainings with John Seidlitz and, you know, some of the people who’ve been there for a long time, Monica Lara and Nancy Motley, and all the well-known names.

And then as I beco- I became a specialist and a coordinator, I was able to hire them to help support our teachers. And so I was a groupie, like a lot of other peoples, a lot of other people. And right now, I am on the Newcomer Division team with Carol Salva, Elise White-Diaz, and Michelle Escaredno. So the four of us make up the Newcomer Division [00:03:00] within Seidlitz, so that is where our area of expertise lies.

So you may be wondering, you’re asking about what am I excited about right now within my work, and we know that, um, because of the political climate, newcomer enrollment has decreased. And so that doesn’t mean our students a- a- are gone. We still have a lot of teachers who have newcomers coming in. Our SLIFE population in- is increasing in some areas.

There’s a lot of support that’s needed. We have been having a lot of conversations about the programming shift That districts are going through right now. Because we have a tendency to kind of pull the plug and then reposition our teachers, our programming. So the message has been just, let’s just pause for just a minute.

You know, a little bit of a pause, and this is a great time to redesign, restructure, and really take a look at the systems we have in place to support our multilingual learners. And it’s a phenon- phenomenal [00:04:00] opportunity to take a look at what do we have in place for our long-term English language learners, because a lot of times they’re the ones, they do make up the bulk of our entire student population pertaining to the program, but sometimes they don’t get the attention that they probably need.

Kind of where the, my work has been focused in on now is working on some of those system analysis, working with district on their multilingual programming, you know, how to redesign it, how to check for the, you have a health analysis that we go through. What is the health of our system? So these times of lull is an excellent time to pause and take a deep dive into our programming and, you know, strengthen that.

Mandi: What brought you to ML education? And tell us a little bit about who you are and the work that you’re doing. 

Dr. Marie Heath: A little bit about myself. I did not grow up ever thinking I would be a teacher. I, I never, that I wa- I would have loved to have done that, and I used to pretend school with my little brother and the kids in the [00:05:00] neighborhood, but that was not ever something that I saw as attainable.

And I’ll kind of tell you some, some background and, you know, maybe some of our participants can relate to this, but I grew up as a second-generation immigrant. My mom came from Mexico, and I grew up with a mindset of not having the understanding of what is actually available to me. So it’s kind of an interesting, if you, if you study the research behind second-generation immigrants, it’s very interesting.

We pour a lot of, you know, trying to understand our first generation, but our second generation, when I started doing my research for my, in the doctoral program, I was very surprised to see myself in a lot of the research. So what the research does say is our second-generation immigrants, they are more at risk in comparison to our first-generation immigrants.

They’re more at risk for dropping out or struggling in school, for risky behavior, for early pregnancy, for, for marrying early and having large families. [00:06:00] Like, it just goes on and on and on, and I thought, “This is very intriguing.” Like, I wanted to know why. And so that’s kind of where my journey began with s- how I support my students when I did become an educator.

Um, so a little bit of backstory of growing up. The struggle that second-generation immigrants have is that we’re toggling two different cultures. And we know as a child, as you’re growing up, your identity is being formed, and trying to figure out where, where do I belong. You know, I’m not white, I’m not Hispanic.

I’m, you know, there’s, there’s missing components where I’ve, you know, you don’t really know where you belong. And so that impacts our students greatly whenever they’re toggling between two different cultures. And sometimes our second-generation, um, students, they’re not actually fluent in their native lang- They can communicate, but you know, they’re not what we would call completely fluent.

So language definitely a big part of, you know, your, your identity [00:07:00] of which culture you belong in. So with that being said, as I was growing up, I was one of the students that started falling through the crack. We see that happen a lot of the times. As, as you get older, you start falling behind, falling through the cracks.

I wasn’t really ever part of any type of a community, like, you know, a cheerleader or an athlete or, you know, in the band or… You know, it’s really important. We know how important it is for all of our kids to know w- w- where’s my community? Like, where do I fit in here? And so not having that, that community within the school setting, it, it just amplifies everything.

So I did end up dropping out of school at 16, and I, so I was really far removed from anything that had to do with education. So not being part of any culture, not going through what typical high school kids go through, a prom or homecoming or things like that, you know, I never had seen myself as having access to something like, to me, being a teacher was the epitome of [00:08:00] anything you could possibly select to do for your career.

You know? And that was reserved for the elite people, not for people like me. And so I don’t have a story of an inspiring teacher, and I just wanted to become a teacher because that’s what, in my mind as a child, you know, it’s people who come from wealth, they’re the ones who get to access, like being in band ’cause it takes money, or being a cheerleader or, or even dreaming about going to college and, and having a profession.

That did not belong to somebody like me. That belongs to somebody who has, um, mon- But having a large family, having a lot of children, they started in school, I just, there was something in me that I kept thinking I think I could do this. Like, I think I could be good at this. Because I was very involved with education, as much as a parent could be, and the more I became, you know, just part of that community and volunteering and reading and making copies, anything I [00:09:00] could do, that is what inspired me, is thinking, “I think I could do this.”

It was a long, long journey from being a high school dropout to eventually, um, getting my teacher certification. So I’d have to say that’s what inspired me to be a teacher. That’s the background on that. I 

Mandi: wanna go back for a moment. There’s so much to what you just said. I just wanna go back for a moment.

I’m thinking about my own students I’ve had who felt that pressure of, “My parents immigrated here, and there is so much expectation for me to be the perfect student.” The list just went on and on, and I’m just… I wanna sit with that for a second, because I’m also thinking about the language that teachers use to talk about those students.

I’m thinking back to conversations where even teachers would say, “I can’t believe that student is just throwing away their opportunity after everything that their parents have done to bring them here to, to do better, to have a better career, to have a better opportunity.” I’d love to hear you talk for a [00:10:00] moment from you, you were that student sitting in that seat, and I’m wondering, what’s the takeaway for educators around how we think about our own language and our own messaging, and maybe not firsthand understanding how challenging it is to be that child in school with all of that pressure from the onset?

Dr. Marie Heath: Um, it is a lot, and what you’re describing is our, our first generation students or our 1.5, sometimes they’re called 1.5. Their parents brought them here when they were very, very young, so they were born in another country, and there is a lot of pressure because- There’s a lot of sacrifice that goes into migrating here, and sometimes kids don’t understand that the level of sacrifice that their parents have provided in order for them to…

They’re investing in their, their next generation. This is called a dissonance between one generation to the next, because when kids come here, what’s so important, so kind of a lost piece sometimes, is that they- it’s about their identity. They’re in the process of building identity [00:11:00] of like, “Who am I?” So this is just a whole opportunity for us to be thinking about how do we build those bicultural identities so that our kids don’t try to assimilate, you know, try to leave behind their heritage culture, because then it does cause that dissonance between their parents and themselves.

And so it’s a, it’s a real struggle of going through my bicultural identity. I don’t know where I fit in. I- should I be like this? And my parents said I should be like this. And that’s where our educators have such a valuable role, is I feel like the more that we have an understanding of the acculturation process, like what is this process that they go through?

What are the struggles that they are, are, are working through? And how can I position my students to help them understand you have leadership skills because of your learned experience, your lived experiences that you have with two different cultures that, you know, can help you, and it becomes an asset [00:12:00] in, in your educational journey.

Mandi: You had created a Texas multilingual acculturation studies course. I’d love to learn a little bit more about that. Who is in that course? Where are you deploying it? And tell us about what inspired that work. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Oh, yeah, I’d love to share that story. So- Kind of picking up from where we left off with kind of my journey, I finally did make it into a classroom.

I didn’t ever envision myself being a multilingual teacher. I didn’t even know what that was. But when I was hired, I was ready to do anything. I was so excited to be a teacher. I was hired as a newcomer teacher. I had no idea what I was doing as a baby teacher, and I, thank goodness, had a mentor coordinator that really held my hand along the way.

I share all the time the statement that she made whenever I was first hired, that she let me know this is gonna be the absolute hardest job that you’ve ever… And she was right. I, I, I put all my eggs in the basket and really poured into my newcomer students. But what happened was, along the way, when [00:13:00] I was trying to figure out what I was doing, I noticed and realized the struggles that my newcomers were going through didn’t necessarily have to do so much with language and with learning the content.

It was that adjustment period and trying to navigate a brand-new culture, and then also the transition from everything that was familiar to them to moving into a, a world of disorientation. A lot of errors along the way that I made just not understanding what our students were going through. And so I started trying to find a way to intentionally support this acculturation process.

And, and like I said, a lot of it was through I, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know that they were gonna need support. Navigating how to buy lunch, how to order food, the temperature in the classroom. Our- my students that came from tropical areas that were not familiar with thermal units, it was freezing to them.

And, you know, without them being able to express, “I’m cold. I can’t learn. I can’t focus it’s so cold in here.” So it’s the little things like that. So what I [00:14:00] started doing is going back to, if you think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I wanted to be able to support the needs of my students, and the very first need that Maslow says that we have to attend to is the physiological needs.

And, and that made sense to me. It’s like, of course. They need to know how to navigate their- the, the campus, of how to get from one classroom to the next. They need to know, how do I know which bus to get on? You know? There’s so many buses out there. And to the next level is feeling safe. And so am I in an environment, if our kids come from environments that sometimes school wasn’t a safe place to be, or a resource officer walking around that signaled danger sometimes.

So I started focusing on those two levels before I jumped up, you know, immediately and worked on, working on the belonging. Because we tend to do that as educators. That’s where our heart lies. We want our kids to know that they’re welcome, they belong. Uh, according to Maslow, these are the two things that needed the foundational pieces that need to be in place.

Through [00:15:00] my years of working with newcomers, I slowly started building in activity and explicit things to do to help my students, and what I found was that whole silent period that we talk about was greatly reduced. And I was like, “Oh, this is stress. This is my students feeling so stressed.” When I reduce that level of stress, now they’re able to access the content.

Now they feel more comfortable to engage in conversations with a new language. So that’s really the foundation of where all of this began, and through the years as a specialist, a facilitator, and a coordinator, I began to design actual course materials and start playing with it in summer school programs, and then just, you know, maybe as a course, a non-credit-bearing course, and, and it just continued to develop.

It’s actually the research for my doctoral program, the research that I conducted is all on acculturation process, and how can we support our kids through [00:16:00] a course, through structured structure. And that led me to submit a proposal to the State of Texas, to the Board of Education, for this to be a credit-bearing course, so that our high school students could take this course, receive credit towards graduation.

And to me, that was the epitome of now it’s recognized of, you know, the importance of the course. And so as far as I know, it’s the only acculturation course in our entire country that lives in the state of Texas that all campuses now can include this as part of the graduation pathway for our students.

Andrew: This is absolutely fascinating, and I love, I love that we’re going here because this is not a subject that you typically expect to see in a syllabus of, like, good language or teaching. Like, it’s not– usually we’re having discussions around, I mean, appropriately so, about a lot of the academic instruction, I mean, ways to approach actual language development.

This is a totally different area that I think we fail to focus on, which I think is your po- is your point, is there is so much [00:17:00] opportunity for us to better serve our students by focusing beyond just the language instruction. I’m curious, well, and I guess even before going there, and the other thing I love is that this is coming from Dr.

Marie Heath, who spent so much time in the field working with school districts with how to best teach language instruction, and you’re saying, “Hey, let’s pause for a second. Before we even get to the instruction itself, there’s something else we need to address.” And I think that is so valuable. One thing I’d love to dive into, I see two different, two different sides of this, or two ver- two different parts of this.

Part of it is kind of how you framed it, of there’s a hierarchy of needs, and before students feel safe and ready and capable of focusing on language development, they need to have these other needs addressed. There’s also a piece of probably a little bit of connection engagement with that student. That teacher is so much better equipped to connect with that student if they’ve taken the time to do those things.

Now, are those both there, or is this more of a focus on just the, “Hey, we need to meet these needs”? What about the connection piece? What does this do for the ability of the teacher or the educator in the room [00:18:00] to connect with that student? 

Dr. Marie Heath: That’s a great question. Well, it’s part of how the course is designed.

And then also in my book, the second part is framed around this particular course and all of the activities that you can do. So if we just continue on that journey of thinking about Maslow and those two foundational levels at the very bottom, well, after that, we’re talking about a sense of belonging and self-esteem.

So that my book at the, the second part of my book and the course is divided into three different components, and the first one really focuses on those first two levels of, I just need to know what’s going on. How can we, you know, make sure that we’re thinking through everything from, you know, our kids need to know what are our campus policies and rules.

They, they don’t know that, and who’s explicitly teaching them? Are we letting our kids learn through error? Because I didn’t want them to learn, like I didn’t know, I had a student that after Christmas he brought a toy gun because it was a cool thing that he got, but not knowing our policies are, that’s automatic suspension, even if it’s in your [00:19:00] backpack.

And so I didn’t want my kids to learn through error. The second part of it is all about, it’s, it’s my favorite part, but it’s all about building that bicultural identity. So it goes back to the research of the acculturation process. The healthiest acculturation process is when our kids have a bicultural identity.

So along with being bilingual, biliterate, we want them to be bicultural as well because what research shows is, is this will help them socially and emotionally. And this is where our struggle is. This is what, you know, I had talked about, you know, my own personal struggle of toggling between two different cultures and not knowing who I am.

Well, we can intentionally help to build that bicultural identity. We want kids to know that you will always be, you know, your heritage will always be part of you. But then also, you know, being in a new culture and learning about a new culture, what that does, it just helps you to expand your understanding of how to navigate between two different cultures, like we navigate between two different languages.

So a lot of activities were developed of, you know, [00:20:00] we have beautiful literature out there to help support this, but then what do we do with that beyond reading books or having them display? What projects can kids do? What conversations, what activities can they build and engage in with each other and amongst themselves to help them to have a deeper understanding of that and to, to develop that?

It’s a big part of who they are. And so this is the heart of the entire course. I also would love to share that I have just released a brand-new free resource. So I try to make my resources free, as free as possible. But on my website, I have just released a comprehensive curriculum guide For this course.

So if you were to look up the multilingual acculturation studies course, you would have the standards. But I took the standards, I aligned them with a lot of resources. So Saddleback partnered with me and let me, you know, use a lot of their resources because they have SLIFE resources, newcomer resources, and things like that, with the activities that go with it and the [00:21:00] student outcomes.

So a district, a campus, a teacher could take this comprehensive guide and build a course that supports acculturation. Or sometimes we have counselors that they’re pulling kids in our after school program or summer programs. So I wanted to be able to share all of the wealth of, uh, resources and activities that teachers could actually do to implement the course.

Andrew: Love that. I, I love that you’re creating those resources to it so that each, uh, where you are, you can build those courses for students to feel like they belong. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Yeah, and, and, Andrew, if you don’t mind, I’ll just explain the third part of that book because it’s, it’s very important. That third part is building the leadership skills.

So once we’ve, we’ve moved from Maslow’s, you know, the f- found- foundational level to belonging and an identity all the way up to the top of self-actualization, that’s another big piece that … And you recently had someone on your podcast. I was listening to Dr. Lovelett, that she was talking about, you know, that super p- how do we build that superpower?

How do we help them understand [00:22:00] the superpower? And so that third part is all about leadership skills. How do we position our kids into leadership opportunities on our campus so they understand they have global experience that most of our kids don’t have? They have a deeper understanding of differences in cultures and how to navigate both of those, those worlds.

And so they already have lived experiences that most of our kids won’t have until they’re, they’re adults. And so there’s a whole lot of, of activities that are included on, we’re going to help them understand what the things that you’ve gone through, you have a lot of grit, determination, and experiences that puts you in a position that can help you be the leaders on our campus.

And I think that is really the key, is not only to do fun things with them, but no, to position them in those places so that they have a belief system that, “Wow, I do have a lot of experiences that can help [00:23:00] me, uh, be successful now and in my future.” 

Andrew: What I love about that too is then when they’re in the classroom and they’re learning- That learning has a very, like a new level of intentionality ’cause they see themselves in the culture where they wanna go, who they wanna be, and that they are capable and they belong.

And now that learning is a vehicle to get them to where they wanna go as opposed to, oh, I just need to get this box checked. I just need to go through all these motions that they might go through, but it’s just not landing in the way it does when you see yourself as part of, with a direction that you’re excited about.

Dr. Marie Heath: And we want our kids to know that, you know, you’ve already done hard things. And so when it becomes challenging because they’re learning something that feels difficult, I always wanted my kids to embrace that learning curve I would tell them embrace the learning curve. Instead of thinking about how hard it is, think about this is growth.

This feeling is a feeling of growth, and so learn to embrace it. So really looking at it from a positive, uh, perspective. 

Mandi: I’d love to go back for a [00:24:00] moment and talk about that second part of your book brok- being broken down into three sections. And the teacher in me is, like, I could see sitting in the classroom with my students like, “But when do I know when to move from one stage to the next?

When do I know that my newcomers, that we’re ready to move past it?” The AC example resonated with me so much ’cause I’m like, our Florida winter is the middle of summer inside a restaurant. The AC is so low, and, like, Texas is probably the same. So it, that totally resonated with me of like, yeah, I can’t learn if I’m freezing from the AC.

So when do we know as educators, what advice do you give of not sitting in that space for too long because students need access to content, they need access to rigor. We don’t wanna perpetuate the pobrecito, right? Like, to be sure that our students are challenged and engaged. They can do hard things. But we need to support them to get there.

So what advice do you give for teachers when they’re just feeling really unsure about when do I know that my kids [00:25:00] are ready? 

Dr. Marie Heath: Yeah. And I guess it, um, it depends on what you mean by ready. And so this is not something that happens before they are working on their language acquisition and learning the content.

It happens alongside and forever. My mom came from Mexico, and it’s, it’s forever. She’s constantly learning. And so whenever we had this course in the district that I was in, I reminded the teachers, “This is not linear. You’re not gonna start at the beginning. Don’t think about Maslow and I’m climbing a ladder.

You’re going to let the student needs drive the types of activity and conversations because they will be the ones to let you know I’m so lost because now we have a brand-new schedule and I don’t know…” That’s all the way at the bottom, just their physiological needs. Or you may have a student come in the middle of the year.

Still gonna need those lower levels where the other kids, it’s like, “Oh, well you know how to navigate the whole school system.” Well, now they can be the ambassador. So they’re working on leadership skills while our new kids are working on those bottom levels. And so [00:26:00] the middle part of building that bicultural identity is happening always.

And I’d love to share an activity so you kind of have an idea of like what does this mean to explicitly teach an acculturation course. Can I do that? 

Mandi: Yeah, that’d be wonderful. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Okay. Um, one of my favorite activities to do is called Past and Future Hands, and the reason why I like it is ’cause I, I firmly believe we need to know the students’ stories.

I have to know something about my students’ background, where they came from, some of the things that they’ve experienced, because I can support them better if I know this. If, if it’s a student sitting in front of me and I start from day one, it’s harder to, to, to really meet their needs. Uh, with that being said, we also wanna be highly sensitive to triggering any stories that, that may have trauma involved with it.

So it’s kind of like this delicate dance that we’re doing. It’s like a really need-to-know, but yet I wanna be very respectful of my students. It is perfect for that. All of my activities have a piece of l- [00:27:00] literature to coincide with it that, you know, the kids can hear s- you know, from somebody else’s perspective, another child’s perspective.

So this activity looks like this. All of my students always had a journal because we did a lot of journaling. That’s– there’s a lot of research on the healing and the therapeutic aspects of having our kids journal. And I don’t mean by writing in it. Our activities landed on those pages. So the kids would trace around their left hand and their right hand.

Their left hand represented their past, and their right hand represented their future. So on their left hand, it’s open. I would just let them use any words and symbols and pictures and phrases, anything they wanted to. The only guidance is, you know, tell me about your past. So as the kids are drawing and writing and representing, they have the freedom to express anything they feel comfortable about their past.

As an educator, I now can start gathering some background information, and sometimes the information is I had a dog that I left behind, or I lived with my abuela, or I celebrated my eighth birthday at blah, blah, blah. Sometimes [00:28:00] it’s, you know, full of happy memories and events, but then sometimes there’s trauma that shows up on that left hand.

And it’s so important for me to be able to have an understanding of this is a child that’s known death. This is a child who has, you know, always lived in a, an environment that just getting to school was a difficult task because of the violence that he was surrounded in. Things like that help me to support my student better.

And also, the kids like– and I’ve done this activity for more than a decade, and they like to share their stories with each other, and this is where they find commonalities of like, “Oh, you, you left your dog too?” And they start having the conversations about their dog and how much they miss it, and what kind is your dog?

Like, we wanna build that community of, of safety and the connection. I’m not alone. I’m not going through this alone. The wonderful part about this is on the right hand is where students share their future. I have [00:29:00] done this near, near two decades of doing this, and I have research. You know, it’s part of my research.

And what that has always shown on 100% of our kids, hope. It’s never a story of tragedy or fear or… That doesn’t exist in our kids’ vision of their future. It’s always about what I wanna become. Uh, I wanna travel, I wanna have a family. They’ll put a little ring on the finger and they’ll put little children.

Kids, a lot of times kids wanna give back to their community. It’s always hope, and so it’s a good reminder for us as educators that we wanna do everything we can to help them reach those goals and so that all those dreams are fulfilled. 

Mandi: Yeah. What a simple and profound activity to do with students. 

Andrew: Yeah, I love, love that, and really just these, I see that as connecting to who they are and their desires.

And as well, like maybe their fears or their regret or whatever that is, but really connecting. Uh, Mandy, I, I loved your question ’cause I think [00:30:00] so many people are gonna be asking that of like, okay, when do you go from this phase to that phase? And I loved your response, Marie. And one thing it reminded me of is one of my students who came in one day, and I could tell that she was very anxious.

And, um, I don’t know how I would’ve responded earlier in my life, but I, I, in that moment I realized, okay, you’re, how you’re acting right now is not trying to cause trouble. You’ve, whether it was something happened that morning or that day or whatever it is, she was in a state of like, “Hey, I’m scared. I’m looking for a sense of safety, belonging, grounding.”

And so in that moment, to your comment around it’s not that these phases you go through, I mean, it’s, it’s every day that kids are in different places, and it’s the ability first, I think, just to, to recognize that some of the actions and behaviors you get from your students are not coming from a place of malice.

They’re coming from a place of, “I’m just trying to find my sense of self.” And first, if we can see that, it helps us stay, keep grounded ourselves in those moments not to be reactionary but to see how they’re acting as, oh, you need something. There’s a need here that isn’t being fulfilled. [00:31:00] And being able to then in that, maybe in that moment have a moment of connection, maybe draw out some of that.

A little bit what you were saying in your, your activity, like, okay, what’s the why behind what’s going on? And it may, it may turn into interaction that’s even five, 10 seconds, but just for that student and you to feel and connect comes from taking the time to see them for who they are and recognize that there’s more behind some of their behaviors.

Dr. Marie Heath: Yeah, you know, and what’s difficult for our kids is these are, these are really big emotions that they’re feeling. And t- as teenagers or children, they don’t know how to filter through, “I don’t know why I’m angry. I don’t know why.” They, they can’t articulate that. And so it’s nice to have a resource that will help kids navigate that.

So some of the activities I have works on communication skills. How do I communicate? How do I, you know, manage conflict? It could be, you know, somebody said something to me, and I felt by it. And so having [00:32:00] explicit ways for kids to articulate the why I’m feeling this way. This is normal. It’s not forever, or this is how you can handle those situations.

They need the, the tools to be able to manage those big emotions during this, this process of transition and growth. Um, so I th- I think that all of that, every single stage of Maslow’s is so important, and it, that’s why it’s not linear. Like you were saying, Andrew, they may come in one day and, and say, “I thought they were my friends, and then now, you know, I can’t even sit with them,” and how painful that is.

It’s time to pause, and let’s have, you know, a whole classroom discussion about that. But it can’t be, you know, like a therapy session. It needs to be productive where it’s a systematic way of, you know, research-proven. These are things that help kids through the acculturation process so they can navigate that time, and then come out successful on the other end.

Andrew: Wait, [00:33:00] but wait, but the syllabus says today we’re supposed to be working on academic vocab, so we need to jump into that lesson, right? 

Dr. Marie Heath: Oh, yeah. There’s a lot of academic vocabulary involved in all of this. 

Andrew: Totally. And that’s what I love is this is, this is the real connecting and engaging that helps those kids see, like, hey, this, this is meaningful.

And also, like you said, learning to navigate emotions, uh, realities of life, tough situations that, um, not only, I think, is powerful for our students to be able to have a, a, an instructor that can pause and take that teaching moment, but I think it’s also powerful for our ability to connect with them, and them to feel safe.

Dr. Marie Heath: It’s one of the reasons why I thought having its own separate course was so important. You know, and I, I played with it just at summer school and played with it as an, you know, well, maybe we can fit it into, you know, half language, half acculturate. Like, I played with it a lot of different ways. And even whenever I was trying to, to get it adopted through the state of Texas, a couple of the ladies who were on the board of education said, “You know, we, we really don’t need this.”

They gave me the strongest pushback. “We really don’t need this course [00:34:00] because teachers are already doing that. They’re already doing that.” Well, they m- they might be doing it, but like you were saying, if I’m a math teacher, I cannot pause my math instruction because one student is struggling. This is a very designated time.

It’s intentional. And so for districts to stop and think, “Is there value for us to find intentionality of supporting our students?” And it’s not just newcomers. You know, our, our long-term, our second generation. The last part of that book, that third pillar of helping them to build that bicultural identity, to be proud of who they are, how to utilize them to their, to their benefit of being bicultural.

And so it’s not really pausing other instruction, it’s the intentionality of creating the space for this type of support. Might be at, might be summer school. It might be with a counselor. It might be, you know, during, um, advisory 

Mandi: What it sounds like you’ve really leaned into is creating a playbook to [00:35:00] support teachers and students in that work.

I think it goes back to what you said earlier about your own journey into education, which was an alternative route to education later in life. And even teachers who went through a traditional four-year course to be an elementary ed specialist or to be a science teacher, we know there are so many educators that find education through a second or third career path or later in life after raising their own kids.

And this work, the work you’re talking about, this is not necessarily an explicit part of the transition into a career in education, though as educators we know it is a big part of what you’re doing in the classroom with your students. And I really appreciate that you saw that need, and I wonder how much of your own journey helped you identify this need going into education later in life.

Andrew: Before you answer that, Marie, I really, I love that you called that out because I think that’s so true that for teachers who’ve gone more of a [00:36:00] traditional academic path, they may be more prone to connect with students who take more of a traditional path. And I think part of what, what we’re seeing is that you

This reminds me of our conversation with Dr. Carasalba, which I know, um, you guys are friends. A very non-traditional path, I think, has equipped her and you to connect and see our students in a maybe a little bit of a different light, um, and, and better equipped to help, help connect with them. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Going back to my story of being a high school dropout, there’s a really important component of- It’s really my why.

And, uh, you know, sometimes people are like, “Whoa, whoa, slow down. You’re pretty intense with, you know, ‘We leave no student behind.’ You know, we, uh, we can’t let anyone fall through the crack.” So backing up to that story, when I was 16, before I dropped out, I became pregnant, and it was back in the day whenever you’re a student and you’re a pregnant student, you’re sent to an alternative school.

And I was, and so, you know, it’s already a shame factor involved with, you know, you’re bused to somewhere completely different. [00:37:00] And it, it was interesting because it was the first time I’d fallen so far through the crack and failing so many courses and not having a community at all in school, not feeling a sense of belonging anywhere in school, which it’s, it’s, it’s such an important part for kids.

But this was the first time that I was really successful. I started passing my classes. There was only six of us, and we all had a commonality. We were all growing babies. And I didn’t realize how much I loved learning. You remove all the distractors. You have a community. I was successful. And I thought, “I love learning.”

And so I was a straight A student for the very first time in my entire life. Well, unfortunately, I lost that baby, and so I knew I was gonna have to leave that program, and so I decided not to tell anybody that I lost the baby. Uh, my family knew, but I didn’t tell anybody at the school. I just kept going.

I was determined to be part of that community and not to lose that opportunity to learn. Of course, eventually they found out. You know, “You’re not [00:38:00] growing. What’s going on?” And I had to, to let them know that I lost the baby. And so they said, “Well, you, you can’t stay here.” Well, at that point in time, I was already married.

I had lost a child in my second trimester. I had already gone through adult situations and couldn’t see myself back in that environment that I wasn’t successful in initially. And I tried to explain this to them as a young 16-year-old just crying and begging to stay in that environment where I was successful, and, you know, they let me know, uh, that, uh, they, I could not stay there.

And I told them, “If you make me leave, I will drop out.” He s- gave me my withdrawal slip, and that was the end of, you know, high school for me. So because of that situation, I, as I got older, I realized that system failed me. It failed me. Now, I’m not saying they should’ve given me what I wanted, but if you start going backwards in my whole entire educational pathway, starting to fall through the crack, our silent kids, our compliant kids, that’s a red light.

That’s a [00:39:00] big red flag. W- you know, for us to be looking at where is the community for every single child? Does every child have a place where they feel like they belong? So fast-forward, that has always been a driving force for me because I know the difficulty of having incredibly large family and, you know, getting married young and then thinking, “Oh, I think I wanna go back to school.”

This is not a traditional pathway. It’s a very, very, very difficult pathway that I don’t want any other student to take this pathway. And so that has kind of been my why, why I advocate so strongly. Interesting end to that story is along the way, I ended up in the field of working with multilingual students and, you know, kind of climbing that ladder of a specialist and, and facilitator and then a coordinator.

Ended up back in the same school district that served me well. And so having the opportunity to go back to that very same school district and being an [00:40:00] advocate for some of our most marginalized kids was so fulfilling to know you may have failed me, but you’re not failing the students that I’m here to support.

Andrew: The reason you’re so passionate about that one is ’cause that one is you, and you’re gonna fight for every student to make sure they have an opportunity. I love that. 

Mandi: I don’t think that anyone can do the work that you’re doing like you. You’ve had the journey. You have the experience. I was just at a conference this week, and one of the presenters who had come from a really challenging upbringing, she ha- was talking about the difference between sympathy and empathy, which I feel like around 19, there was I feel like a lot of conversation and professional development about, around the difference between sympathy and empathy.

And sh- she was talking about it, and I feel like your life experience, your lived experience, you can stand in the crack for those students in a way that is so important. And I just, peer to another, just wanna thank you for that. I don’t have those same lived experiences, and I can have a lot of care and passion [00:41:00] in my heart, but you know it.

You’ve walked in those shoes in a different way, and I just wanna thank you for creating the resources that you have and for doing the work that you’re doing because there’s so much that other educators out there can learn from you, from your story. And what an incredible example for students to see.

You went on and got your PhD. I, that is just such an incredible story. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Thank you. I appreciated it. Like I said, it, it’s, it was a long journey, and it doesn’t have to be that long. We have amazing teachers out there doing a lot of work to support our kids, and sometimes it’s hard As an educator, ’cause we feel like we’re working so hard and we’re not seeing the results, and that’s the first part of my book is, you know, how can we design systems that are ef- more efficient so the weight of, uh, you know, having to move our kids forward doesn’t fall so much on our amazing educators.

And so I’m just honored to be part of this journey with other educators [00:42:00] and to, to see stories from all across the country, and how, you know, one thing that’s consistent all across our country is everyone’s trying to do the right work. 

Andrew: Yeah. Mandy, I love that you called that out, because I think it’s true that what you went through has really given you a special gift to connect and understand, and also a really deep drive.

You can tell, not just in all you’ve done, but in just how you talk, that this is heart and soul for you. And one thing that kind of hit me is I think it’s important to realize that that hard in life, despite the fact that it’s hard, can become that driving force. And even talking about some of the hard that we encounter as educators in the classroom or in districts, embrace it.

It is hard. Feel it, and let that mold you into something that drives, “Okay, I wanna make this system better. I wanna help these students better.” Because the hard that we go through in life can be turned, just like you’ve turned very challenging life situations into something that is propelling you into doing so much good, and giving you so much joy too.[00:43:00] 

As we face the same thing in, in, in the work we’re doing right now, we have a lot of hard. Let it shape us into something that helps us dig down deep and find that drive to improve our systems everywhere we are. This is so inspiring. I love, I’ve been loving this conversation 

Dr. Marie Heath: I appreciate you having me on and, and allowing me to share my story and my message with other educators.

I appreciate the fact that Flashlight 360 is continuing to, to host podcasts. It’s, it’s such an, a valuable part to educators’ journey. I remember being a teacher, and I just so strongly desired to, to learn and to grow, but sometimes those limitations were based on the budget of the district, and it was heart-wrenching when I was in the classroom.

So when I became a coordinator and we went through the pandemic, and everyone started coming out with all kinds of ways to help support teachers, that never stopped. I constantly was sending out ways to help teachers grow because money should not be what limits our teachers from becoming excellent teachers and from growing.

So thank you [00:44:00] for continuing to provide that, the free re- resources for all teachers who want to continue, all educators who want to continue to grow. 

Mandi: Yeah, and just to make a connection to when you were reflecting to your high school experience, you mentioned multiple times you didn’t feel community. You didn’t feel connected.

You weren’t a cheerleader. You weren’t a, an athlete, uh, on the… You didn’t have that soccer team around you or… And it can make you feel like you’re just floating alone through this experience, and other people are connected. And we know we’ve got high turnover rates for educators. We have people coming into the career.

This isn’t new, right? But they stay one to three years, and they’re out. And there’s so much to be said about the need for community. And when we learn together, when we work through hard things together, it bonds us. And when we have common goals, and educators need that community. And when professional development, I think, in the past has played a role in not just a sit and get of, [00:45:00] “Here’s something new that you need to learn,” but has cr- has created space to build community, right?

We have our lunch break together. Teachers never get to leave campus. So, ooh, this is a day that we can leave campus and go have lunch together. And when all those sub funds are gone, and it just little bit over a little bit, it e- starts to take away. It erodes from that community and, and connecting and bonding that’s really important for s- for teachers to feel success in the building.

So I think edu- directors have gotten creative around how to still build that for teachers. Do you have any thoughts about new teachers, your observations? You’re traveling across the country doing trainings. I’d love to hear what your thoughts are about that community piece. And are there creative things you’ve seen schools doing to keep and hold teachers in the profession?

Dr. Marie Heath: Yeah. I can see I, I have a lot to share what not to do. And there’s a lot of things that are very f- effective, and, and you hit the, the nail on the head because having that community, it is hard. I was at a conference, and I had a session, and it was, you know, showing about the [00:46:00] systems design, my, my new book, the Strategic by Design.

And, and it’s, uh It is frame, there’s a framework around six different pillars and all the work that our teachers are doing, everything that’s involved in a system. And so I have a visual that displays that. After the session, I had a teacher come up to me and she said, “I need that slide that has all of the pillars and the work that’s involved in a multilingual program ’cause I wanna pin that to the back of my shirt, and I wanna wear that all the time so people can understand the schooling.”

And so sometimes we lean so heavy into our teacher, our, our multilingual teachers because they’re the experts, they’re the ones who understand the compliance, they’re the ones that understand the specialized instruction and, you know, how to support the families and, like, the whole scope of it And so what I have really been trying to lean into is redesigning our system so that weight doesn’t, doesn’t land on the shoulders of our multilingual teachers all the time because that’s one of the quickest [00:47:00] ways to burn out.

And it’s, it, what makes it even harder is because of the flexible schedule that a lot of them have, sometimes it looks like, well, what are you doing all day long? You know, I’m a science teacher and I have five different courses and 135 kids I’m serving, but y- you’re responsible for your class. They go in there, there’s only eight kids in there, and then what are you doing fourth, fifth, and sixth period?

It’s hard. It’s really hard on us because there’s so much that we’re doing. We’re being called to the front. We have to test. We have to support. We’re going to PLCs. We’re helping kids who are struggling. We’re also teaching. So there’s so much that they’re doing that’s the invisible work. What– how can we create systems that give them the space to accomplish the work that they need to do, and what things can we actually take off of their plate that’s not necessary, that doesn’t have a level of expertise that we can be giving to other people?

So I think it’s more about what can we do to remove some of the things so it’s not such a high-pressure job as it is. There’s a big [00:48:00] emotional component to working with our multilingual students because they’re going through lots of transitions. They have a lot of things that they’re trying to navigate.

And so with that being in mind, we want to protect our, our such, our valuable teachers as, you know, some of the strongest assets that we have on campus. And so, you know, taking a look at that I think is probably the best gift that we can give to our multilingual educators. 

Mandi: Thank you so much. I feel like we could talk all day long about this incredible work that you’re doing.

Your story is inspiring, and I know that it will be to others, and energizing to continue doing the work. It matters. Your pebble in the pond has a ripple effect. My– I also am just hearing from your story today of we have a choice wherever we are, wherever our locus of control is, we have a choice of how we show up for the people around us.

If you’re a coach and you’re supporting teachers, if you’re admin, if you’re a teacher in the class with students, it matters. It matters [00:49:00] when you see that student and you advocate. It matters when you invite them to have lunch with you because they need some extra support. Those small actions matter.

They have a ripple effect. About your story and how you didn’t have that educator that really stood in the crack for you, thinking about the impact of our actions and our words and our mindset around the work that we’re doing. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you for being here today with us, Dr.

Heath. 

Dr. Marie Heath: Thank you. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to share my story, um, with everyone. Thank you.