Dr. Simone Wilkinson: [00:00:00] Really centering racial, cultural, and linguistic identities in curriculum and in schools is just really powerful and creates opportunities for students to become excellent human beings and also share who they are and what they are, and really create a space where everyone can connect and everyone can relate, ’cause we’re all just human beings sharing our experiences.

Mandi Morris: Hi, I’m Mandi Morris. Welcome to the ML Chat podcast. We had an incredible conversation today with Dr. Wilkinson, and learned a lot about what brings her joy in her work, and the incredible capacity that she’s building for teachers in the buildings where she’s serving as an admin. 

Andrew Brandt: What I en- enjoyed about the conversation is that we’re talking to somebody who’s very much in the work, kicking off here in a few weeks a new role as an elementary principal, very close to just those relationships with the teachers and students, and the impact that can have in the success of her students and her team.

And I just loved how she talked about it. This is a great… I love this conversation. 

Mandi Morris: Yeah. She [00:01:00] has a real human approach to all of the work that she’s doing, whether it’s supporting teachers or connecting with students, and a lot of humility in the work that she does. It was wonderful to talk with her today.

Very energizing, and I think that you’re gonna enjoy this conversation as well. 

Andrew Brandt: Let’s go 

Mandi Morris: Dr. Wilkinson, welcome to the ML Chat podcast. We are really excited to get to know you today and have this conversation and learn about the awesome work that you’re doing. Just hi, welcome. Tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing and where you are.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Thank you so much, Mandi and Andrew, for allowing me on today. I’m, like, truly honored and excited to share a little bit about me. Just a little bit about myself, I’ve been working in DC Public Schools for my 16th year now on and off. Most recently, I was a administrator over our multilingual learner programs, dual language programs, and world language programs at a high school in Washington, DC.

And three weeks ago, I transitioned to be principal of an [00:02:00] elementary school 10 minutes away, so just three weeks in. So super trial by fire right here, but excited to continue to support the community that have been working here for 10 years, and also continuing to work for our multilingual learners and that community to make sure that they continue to, you know, become involved and really understand the importance of, you know, how language learning works in all spaces.

I also have a doctorate in educational leadership and did my dis- dissertation about DC public schools, looking specifically at the secondary level about what program models worked best for students through sixth through 12th grade. So happy to also nerd out about that as well. 

Andrew Brandt: What a big jump. That is exciting.

I’m curious, what are you most excited about making that jump to elementary? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: I, I really like recess and lunch duty. I know some people have, like, phobias or fears about that, but I just really like an opportunity to, like, authenticl- have, you know, like, conversations with students, play games with students, just sit and have a meal with students.

I did that at the high school as well. I’d sit and eat my lunch with kiddos during lunch, so I just [00:03:00] continue to do that with our, our littlest learners, so I’m super excited about that. And just, like, field trips, field day, like, all those, like, fun, joyous moments that teenagers, you know, get the ick about, so.

Andrew Brandt: And what are you gonna miss most about high school? ‘Cause you’re right, there’s, there is so much to love about elementary and that age. What do you miss about it? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: I just really miss the opportunity to just help students, like, figure out what the next step is, and really just become, you know, excellent human beings.

And, you know, all the, like, graduation and prom are also really special moments, but just those, like, interactions in the hallway where students would just, like, checking on them, just talking about what’s next, what’s happening. It’s just, like, really… A lot of students have come back and said how formative that was, and don’t always remember, you know, elementary and middle school, even though, like, you know, we educators build on that and also help them become those people.

But just, like, those opportunities to do that is definitely gonna be missed. 

Mandi Morris: So you’re in this leap, and I mean, school starts really soon. So you took this position, like, weeks before the school year, and you’re moving from an AP position at secondary [00:04:00] into a lead principal position at elementary school.

What, what are you feeling right now getting ready to, like, take on a lead principal position? What does that transition feel like going from AP to principal? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I’ve been really fortunate that I’ve had, uh, really great mentors and administrators beforehand that really, as an assistant principal, gave me opportunities to have those leadership moments and, and lead people on projects.

So I feel as ready as you could be. I’m also really fortunate in inheriting a school where the princ- the tr- the principal transitioned to another school in our cluster, so I’ve been really in communication with her. And she was really strong on systems and, and systems and structures, and so it was just kind of stepping into a really well-oiled machine.

And so I’m really fortunate for the staff and the community for welcoming me, and I’m just trying to be a sponge and soak it all in, and just trying to get to know more about the community so I can really start to, you know, provide the support that they need to continue to do excellent things. 

Mandi Morris: I am excited to learn more about your focus and the, you know, research that you did, and unpack that [00:05:00] a little bit for 6-12 learners.

I think there’s probably a lot of learning there that you can share with all of us. Before we dive into that and, you know, hopefully talk some about experienced multilingual learners in the secondary space where you’ve got a lot of experience, let’s get to know you a little bit, and what- What brought you to education?

How did your, you know, path lead to where you are today? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah. So I’m the oldest of four, and I always kind of just had … I just, we did school, we did library, and I was always the teacher, so I really felt like, you know, I just was an educator from a young age. And then my dad, besides being an accountant, also taught like Accounting 101 at the, the, the, the community college, and so just really had a good time being a young person grading Accounting 101 papers.

It was just like super exciting, and I was like, “Yes, I … This is very nerdy, but I love it.” So just, just that passion just drove me to, to get into education, and I really realized during my student teaching experience in New Jersey, I saw a real huge disparity between [00:06:00] socioeconomic status and race in terms of what type of classes students were taking, and that really drew me to urban education, where I ended up and started my teaching career in DCPS at another high school here.

And throughout that, have just been, and also did two years there, and then went and taught, um, worked at two K through eights in Newark, New Jersey, where I’m originally from, and then came back down here. So just really passionate about providing excellent opportunities for students, no matter their zip code, no matter their background, no matter who they are, what they are, or where they come from.

Really centering like racial, cultural, and linguistic identities in curriculum and in schools is just really powerful and creates opportunities for students to, you know, become excellent human beings, and also share who they are and what they are, and really create a space where everyone can connect and everyone can relate, ’cause we’re all just human beings sharing our experiences.

Mandi Morris: I, I feel like so much of like you- who you are and, like, your heart that’s already coming out is, it’s so, it’s so human-centered, right? Like, I mean, you’re like, from Andrew’s question at the beginning, you’re like, “I, I [00:07:00] love sitting and having lunch with students and playing games.” I loved hearing that. Like, wow, that’s really, really powerful.

Playing games with students of all ages is really powerful. And it just sounds like from even your student teaching when you were, you know, probably what, 20, 21 years old, you felt like your heart was just really drawn to maybe students that felt underserved, overlooked, or opportunities, and it sounds like that’s still a passion that has just driven your career.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, 100%. I really, I- it was funny ’cause my student teacher, my s- my, my mentor for student teaching, my co-teacher so to speak, was actually like the antithesis of like what you do not do as a teacher. So I felt like that was also a trial by fire, but it was just really interesting to like, because of the types, it was high school, so the types of classes that he did teach was like, there was like the more academic, like grad, the college level track, and then they also had the, like, kind of remedial students that were not passing the state assessment.

And so just like, just preparing and teaching those types of learners, I really kind of learned, you know, like, th- this is, like, a big [00:08:00] disparity, and also like why can’t students read, you know, about Odysseus? Like, why can’t students, you know, do all these things? Like, it’s about access, and it’s about, again, centering students as people, and just giving everybody the opportunity to learn no matter what track they’re on or who they are, what other conditions put them in the seat in front of you.

Andrew Brandt: So I would love to explore something real quick. We’ve got a fun opportunity right here where you’ve got this amazing background, both in serving students who’ve been underserved, oftentimes a large portion of that population oftentimes is learning another or learning English as a new language, and now you’ve got a new building.

And which is w- a lot of, many of our audience finds themselves in this situation where they’ve got this passion, and now they’re in a new role. How do I move forward? And I’m curious just what’s going through your head as you’re preparing to serve this- This new school. How to best support those students.

And maybe let’s start with what the, what you know enrollment and what the population is. What’s the, the work ahead of you, and how do you break that down? What are [00:09:00] your, where do your thoughts first go in how to serve these students? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah. So we’re close to, like, 45% of our students identify as, like Latin A Hispanic, and the other half are African American Black, and then I have about 4% white.

It’s in a neighborhood that’s slowly been gentrifying, so I’m definitely seeing a little bit more enrollment with more white families. But it’s very similar to the, like I said, my school that I wa- was at for 10 years. It’s 10 minutes down the street or many streets, so to speak. So I’m, I’m excited because I am used to working with those type of populations, and also understand that, like, many times, in many ways society tries to, you know, based on your race, try to, like divide against, like, him versus us, or, like, if you don’t s- you know, you cannot speak our language.

And, like, DC has a very specific language and vernacular, like any, you know, area along with, like, having other languages besides English in the school. It’s about creating those opportunities for community and collaboration. What I’m really grateful for this school community is they have a really great system where they have monthly [00:10:00] potlucks, so to speak, or, like, family dinners where everybody comes together and there’s dancing, and it’s really like a family barbecue or a fiesta where everyone’s bringing food and there’s dancing.

And the family, the community loves those, and they also have father, father-daughter teas, mother-daughter teas. And so, like, this school communities are so saw the need about, like, though despite all of our differences, we’re still this school community, and we should come together and celebrate. And they have had those authentic opportunities over food, over dancing, over celebrations to do that, so I’m super excited to continue those traditions and really figure out additional ways how we can continue to include more people into that community.

Some things that I’m thinking about transitioning is just getting to know people. Everyone keeps asking me how I’m feeling. I’m just like, “I’m just gonna be a sponge,” because I know, you know, you know, you hear some things through the grapevine, but at, like, you know, to be in a building is a totally different situation, and especially now because we’re in summer, only have a few staff members that have been in the building.

So just really being a sponge and just looking at documents, looking at data like, you know, everybody does for [00:11:00] Typical entry planning, but it’s really about having conversations. That opportunity last week to talk to the PTO president. In a couple weeks I have a couple teachers that volunteer their time to come in and, and just have a conversation with me, and I just wanna learn about them.

I wanna learn about the school, about what’s going well, what are some things that potentially need to be improved upon, and then what I can do to help them as a leader. And so I rarely… It’s really kind of almost like doing a dissertation or research. It’s just right now I’m just like the research gathering phase and just getting in more information.

And then once I kind of understand what’s going well for our school and what are some ways that I can help to continue to strengthen what’s already going well, then I can kind of start to take action probably around October, November once I kind of like really get, really get into the, the meat and potatoes and the, the gears of the school year.

Mandi Morris: I think that’s an indication of a really great principal. Your first move is like, “I need to learn,” right? Like, “I need to get to know this community, and I need to learn all of the things that I can and make connections,” and I think that’s, you know, it really is. It’s … I’m [00:12:00] excited for your teachers. I’m excited that that’s like how you wanna approach that because I think, you know, you’ve been on the other side as a teacher too, right?

And like getting a new admin can be stressful because especially for people who have been in the building for a long time or maybe are attached to like the, “This is how we do things,” right? Like, “This is how it’s done.” So I think it’s such a, just a strong indication of a great leader that you’re like willing to go in and to learn and to listen and to build on systems.

It sounds like some really great systems that are already in place. 

Andrew Brandt: No, that 100%, and I love how such a strong leader just it goes back I think so core of who you are is to relate to people. You have to first listen and just see what’s there and see who they are and how they are and how they see the world, and then you’re in a position that you can share and offer.

And, and can we jump back real quick to these monthly potluck barbecues? That is awesome. I have never heard or seen anything like that. I know that all, all schools are doing different parent gatherings and there are different things to events around, but never [00:13:00] described or never anything like that. That is phenomenal, and what a great way to unite your community.

And especially in your situation where it’s a very diverse community, and a lot of potential to be the exact… to not be united. And so it sounds like you’ve got a f- a great foundation going in, in, in building community and connection, and it’s exciting. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I haven’t experienced it yet, so I can definitely report back once I attend it.

But I saw a lot of pictures, and any time anyone describes a community, they’re like, “Oh, you, you have to come to the community dinners.” I’m like, “Yeah, I wanna be there.” Like, I can’t wait to bring my four and near eight-year-old there so they could also run around and cause havoc too. ‘Cause again, it’s about, you know, family and community, and, like, people celebrate, you know, together when there’s food and when there is something t- you know, exciting happening.

And so I’m excited to experience those and just be- again, become more involved in the school community. 

Mandi Morris: Andrea, that’s a great call-out ’cause I feel like, you know, a lot of what we see with, like… It’s like culture night, and it’s, like, one time a year, and it’s a very, like, [00:14:00] fabricated experience, right? Where it’s, you know, it, it’s put on.

Like, you’re, you’re putting on something. And what you’re describing is, like, family dinner on a Sunday afternoon, right? Where you’re like, it’s- It’s come as you are. It’s be who you are. It’s genuine and authentic. What a cool approach to building community. It, it really, it, it, it feels different from what we see a lot.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Now don’t get me wrong, they take Hispanic Heritage Month and Black History Month very seriously too, but again, this is like an addi- ’cause, you know, we have to celebrate those identities within our building. But again, yeah, it’s about, you know, doesn’t matter who you are, everyone celebrates over food, everyone celebrates over dancing, and so what you get…

Like I said, what a, a great system in place already for this school, and I can’t wait to, to bust a move and to bring something to the table. Probably forks or, or soda or something ’cause I don’t really cook, but I’ll bring something. When 

Andrew Brandt: you say bust a move, are you talking about bust a move as in cooking the food you’re gonna deliver, or are you talking about- 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: We’ll do some wobble.

You know, the kids all like the peanut butter jelly time. You know, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get all- 

Andrew Brandt: Oh man, you [00:15:00] are gonna be the coolest principal. They are gonna love you. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: It’s so good. So good. 

Andrew Brandt: So I do have a follow-up question, and I realize that the question I’m asking, ’cause I, my, I’m, I love the answer you gave around your role.

You see yourself as going in and just listening. Of just seeing, like absorbing, and I think that’s absolutely the right answer. And so I don’t wanna ask this question about your building because that, that would prompt you to speculate, but maybe we just talk about the theoretical building or something you’ve seen in, in, in other buildings, your other roles.

As you’re going in, or as leaders are going into new roles in prin- like, what are key areas that come to mind of, “Hey, these are areas to, to, to be aware of or focus on to really build a strong…” Whether it be culture, instructional unit. What are the areas that, that f- are top of mind of, “These are the areas I wanna focus”?

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I think something that I still have a lot of questions about is, like, what the meeting structures are and what the intentions are for those meetings, basic- ’cause again, like, having a planning meeting with a staff member versus, you know, having a [00:16:00] more in-depth conversation, like, with a parent about academics or behavior serve really different purposes and are also really important.

And we also know that, like, teachers have s- only so many hours in the day, and we only have so many hours in the day, and so that’s just something I’ve been thinking about is, like, what- Structures and for meetings are in place. What are the intentions for those meetings? Who’s at the table? What additional resources or people need to be included or removed based on, you know, other things that they have?

So that’s something that I’ve been thinking about. Also just been, like, trying to also listen to kids. I’m really fortunate that we have a summer camp in our building, so I’ve had a few op- opportunities just to ask them questions and learn about themselves. But a lot of times, especially in elementary school, we don’t always talk to kids, or they do typically do, like, your, you know, your upper elementary school.

So I’m really excited to think about, you know, based on the structures and the systems that the school already h- already has, how do we have more opportunities, you know, outside from, like, your SGA or just, you know, the student that has also been very confident to, you know, ar- articulate and advocate for themselves.

But how are [00:17:00] some ways to get kids to really say how they’re experiencing school? Because again, that shows up in culture, behavior, how they talk to… how families interact with school, obviously academics, relationships with teachers. So that’s something that I’ve been trying to be a little bit more intentional about, to think about how, what’s the student experience and how do we take what a student is saying beneath that song and figure out what things we need to change, adapt, or amplify depending on how they’re experiencing school.

Andrew Brandt: It’s again, going back to the relational piece. I just love how aware of how we relate to the world, how you relate to your students, and the role that plays in the learning experience. That’s phenomenal. Mandi, you were gonna say something. 

Mandi Morris: Well, gears a little bit to the secondary. You know, we’ve been talking about this big transition you have and going back to elementary school, and the way that we build relationships with students at secondary is different, yet you called out earlier there’s similarities too, right?

Like, our middle schoolers and our high schoolers, they wanna be heard and they wanna be seen, and just as much as our, our little kids. But [00:18:00] the way we go about that is different, and I would love to hear you talk some. You know, these last years you’ve been in the secondary space, and I’d love to hear you talk some about what has relationship building looked like in the secondary space.

How has that impacted your ML population in particular? And, you know, any thoughts or advice you have around, like, you know, we did this as a system and it worked really well, or like, these are some learnings and some takeaways of things we tried that didn’t. And any advice or thoughts you have about that, I, I’d love to pick your brain.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean, I think with You know, like teenagers, generally a lot of them will come find you and tell you how they’re feeling or what’s going on, which is good. The last couple years from my previous principal has been really intentional about, like, having structured, like, focus groups with students based on different, different foci.

So a lot of… The pa- this past year we kind of reshaped how teachers experience in professional development within our school. And we specifically called a focus group and tried to have it [00:19:00] mirror the demographics, language abilities, special education status of our building, and really ask about how are they experiencing their classroom and more about academics.

And that was a little bit hard for some teachers to hear based on what their students were saying. But it was also really helpful for us for data collection about, like, we’ve been working on, like, co-teaching and having, like, parallel, parallel teaching and not, like, one teach, one assist and, like, stations.

And so we asked students about, like, “How are you… Like, how are you experiencing this? What does this look like? How does this feel like?” And some students were like, “I don’t understand it.” And some were like, “I really like having, being in a small group with my teacher,” right? And s- or, “I really like that I know the stations every day, and I can, I know what the expectations are.

And it’s not like we’re not doing something different every day. We’re not, like, just, like, reading from a text and, and writing.” So that’s been really helpful in kind of understanding the student experience, so I’m excited to take that to the elementary school and also figure out, like, different opportunities to s- collect data with students, either at recess or actually having those focus groups.

Specifically for our multilingual learners, we always made sure we had, like, a [00:20:00] translator or a friend in there to, so they can sh- ex- share their experience and also, you know, have a comfortability with language so that they could also participate. And so that’s been really helpful, ’cause a lot of times our multilingual learners aren’t asked the questions because, you know, have hesitations either ’cause they’re not n- they, you know, are not fluent in a language or, you know, it makes students feel, uh, uncomfortable having a conversation.

And so just either finding allies or having translators, staff translators there so they can feel comfortable, and that’s been really helpful to try to continue to get that voice. I know I’m not at the school anymore, but I know the focus is to have specific… We have, like, girl groups and boy groups at our school for students based on behavior for tier two and tier three.

And so the focus for this coming year is having that be more inclusive of our multilingual learners, ’cause again, our multilingual learners, at least at this, my previous building, didn’t really have too many behavior infractions. And so just because they’re quiet doesn’t mean, like, they don’t need help and they don’t need support.

And so I’m excited for my previous school to kind of have a more [00:21:00] intention- intentional focus with those groups of students. But again, also thinking about, like, what does that look like in my new space? I can’t wait to just, again, be at recess, be at lunch, talk to kids, and just really kinda see what their experience is and how they’re, they’re feeling.

Andrew Brandt: I love hearing you talk about your students. I’m– And how to connect to them. I’m curious, is that just kinda how you’re wired from childhood? Or is there maybe some experiences that along the way that really hit you and you kind of like aha moment of, “Oh, no, this, that’s kind of shaped or been formative for you”?

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: That’s a good question about wired. I mean, I feel like it’s, I probably am wired ’cause I’m the oldest of four, and there’s always just a lot of voices. And so just needing to, like, make sure you hear everybody and just collaborate in a way. Uh, I would just say, like, I, you know, I’ve been through a lot of different schools and started new a lot of times, and I’ve just come to realize, like, I don’t have all the answers, and that’s okay, and really, like, turning to others, and I think that’s really, again, through, like, modeled through my previous principals and, like, mentors is like, it’s okay to ask questions.

It’s okay to seek for clarity. And again, just really, like, our students are our focus, uh, in education, and [00:22:00] they, they should have a say about how they’re experiencing things. And so that’s really been a push as well. Obviously, like, educators too, educators are so crucial and do the hard work of being in, in front of students every day, teaching and, and doing all the million and one things that they have to do.

Uh, but again, for students, it’s not always the– schools don’t always have the opportunity to talk to students, and so kind of creating those opportunities in whatever frequency and forever focus that you have is, is really important. 

Andrew Brandt: And I love that. Do you have any stories that come up for you of a time where- More than just giving s- students instruction or direction, that taking the time to connect with them and relate with, to them made the difference.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, it was so funny. The last day of school, I had a, a junior come up to me and give me a hug and say, you know, “Have a good summer.” I asked him what he was doing for the summer, and he’s like, “Okay, I’ll see you next year.” And I was like, “I w- I’m not gonna be here. I’m sorry.” And he was just, like, really distraught, Andres.

And this is just a kiddo that s- sometimes he would just be in the hallway ’cause he just, he just needed a break or just needed a moment. But overall, he’s, like, [00:23:00] a really good k- really good kiddo, really a really good friend to a lot of students, and really strong academically. And he just real- he just mentioned to me, like, “You were just always ask me how I was doing, like, every day and to check on me every time you saw me in the hallway.

And, like, I actually really appreciated that because not a lot of people asked how I was doing, and then there’s some days I was really having a hard time, and I really appreciated you, like, you s- checking on me and also saying, like, ‘Oh, I like your shirt. I like your hair.'” So I just, like, it’s just, like, moments like

And again, he’s a, our multilingual learner. He’s more of a long-term Eng- long-term English language learner. But again, it’s just, they’re just people. They, we need to check on each other. We’re a village here, too, so it’s just about checking on kids. Yeah, that, that experience really touched me a lot because, again, I did not know the impact of me just saying hello, checking on him every day really had on his ex- experience here.

And he’s already said, “You need to come back and visit” . So I have marching orders from Andres to come back and visit. But yeah, again, it’s, it’s about we’re h- we’re all humans, and again, our kiddos are why we do it. And so just checking on them whenever way feels authentic and meaningful for [00:24:00] you and that student.

Mandi Morris: Something you said made me think about an article I read recently from the, the Well section of The New York Times, and it was, like, how to have conversations that aren’t how are you? Like, it’s for adults, right? But we, you have such scripted responses like, “I’m fine. Everything’s fine,” or, “Yeah, it’s great.

I’m good.” And s- the whole thing was, like, essentially sentence starters for, like, having deeper connections with people. And one of the sentence starters was complimenting someone on what they’re wearing or what, and I think teachers are, teachers who emphasize relationships are really good at that. But I think it’s one of the, like you said, million and one things that educators do that they don’t necessarily

It’s not that someone taught them a framework. It’s not that they, like, read a book about it or they like … It’s just, like, so many educators are drawn to the work because of relationships, and they’re showing up. But I love that you’re identifying how powerful that was for that student and how im- that relationship move is.

And I think it’s, you [00:25:00] know, some kids, you know, you’re gonna always get that, “It- it’s fine. It’s fine. It’s fine.” It’s like, what are the sentence starters or, like, frames for us adults to be able to go a little bit deeper and dig a little bit deeper to have and create those genuine connections? You mentioned, like, maybe you were doing that in the hallway sometimes, right?

‘Cause as an admin you can float through hallways, where as a teacher it’s … I, I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about, like, what were your moves that you did that were super intentional to make those connections with students? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: As a teacher or as an administrator? 

Mandi Morris: Both. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I would say as a teacher, I would just, like, hug every kid or, like, high-five them every morning as they came in.

I always taught first period, and so, like, you know, teenagers first thing in the morning are a very special creature. But just, like, I would just welcome kiddos, and there’s a couple kids that would come in late, and just like, “Hey, how you doing? Just get, get, give you a second to set up.” And then once they were kinda set and settled, myself or my co-teacher would kinda welcome them.

And so again, it’s just, like, a human connection and finding opportunities to get to know [00:26:00] students. I know a lot of times teachers use, like, Do Nows to do, like, would you rather, some other, like, crazy questions that also help foster, or Jane Brain breaks it like that, too. But that’s just kind of a way to, like, kinda start the conversation and find out, like, what are these interests for these students and w- how do they kinda see or have they experienced based on, you know, would you rather fly or be invisible, right?

And, like, what’s their rationale for that? But again, that also translates language. Like, it, like, being, being able to fly and being invisible, like- Can have two different, very different things, and it doesn’t matter your language or cultural identity or racial background. It’s like, maybe I just wanna get to here and to, you know, maybe I wanna go to Tahiti, and I just wanna be there, right?

Or, like, maybe I just wanna, like, sneak around and, like, sneak into movies. But just, like, finding ways to do that as a educator, I think, is what a lot of teachers do, and also really helpful. And again, language should- shouldn’t be the barrier, ’cause we all have experiences. I think for an administrator it is a little bit harder, especially as, like, if you’re going to classrooms, you don’t wanna, like, upset the ecology of the classroom or the flow of the [00:27:00] classroom.

So again, I think it’s just, like, greeting kids at arrival, dismissal, asking them questions. Lunchtime transitions is really the, the opportunity, and then a lot of our kids do extracurriculars, and so just, like, attending those or just having… Like, if you’re not able to attend them, like, knowing the score of the basketball game or whatever is going on at their, you know, after school has also been really helpful to kind of, like, start the foundation for relationships and then building on that, just, like, having conversations and checking in w- with one another.

Mandi Morris: Dr. Wilkerson, to take a step back, you talked earlier about having structures for small group instruction in secondary, and we know small group instruction is just, like, part of the air that elementary school breathes. Like, that is so baked into instruction. And in secondary it really, buildings are in different places.

Like, it depends on where admin are and where teachers are of what small group instruction looks like in secondary. I’d love to hear you talk through two different parts of this. What did it look like to roll out small group instruction in a high school? And I’d love to hear you unpack a little bit more specif- specificity [00:28:00] around how did teachers respond to that and students respond?

And I’m thinking in particular around the relationship piece. So, you know, having those small groups does allow teachers and students to feel more connected and, you know, when you’ve got three or four kids in front of you. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about the impact it had for your school.

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: 100%. I wanna kind of take a step back. And so at my previous school, 42% of our population were identified as multilingual learners. And before my previous prin- principal arrived, it was, you know, a separate academy for those students versus others, you know, just general education, along with our special education students being in, in separate spaces too.

And so they charged me and to lead our multilingual learner leadership team to really just say like, “We are going to eliminate all these shelter classes with the exception of kids who’ve been in the country for less than 12 months, and I want kids in all spaces ’cause I want them to have access.” ‘Cause we know research says that like, you know, master schedule for secondary is a key limitation for some [00:29:00] students being able to get to post-secondary access and options.

Yeah. So spent that first year just le- really planning what the next five years looked like for that integration, and also talking to staff about like we are transitioning into co-teaching. Like all multilingual learners will be in all spaces. And so like talking about like how all teachers are multilingual learner teachers and special education teachers, you know, identifying about translanguaging, receptive bilingual, and some staff even identifying like, “Yeah, actually I can understand my grandmother when she speaks Vietnamese when I’m not able to answer,” right?

And so like just also talking about how language is a s- like language output and input is a spectrum. And so like all of us have had those opportunities where we may not been able to understand or to, we’ve been a- able to understand but not been able to, to communicate. And so through that, that kind of first like half year just going through that just got Got all the, the anxious energy out, all the questions.

Just really kinda helped educators, like, understand what was happening. So that was four years ago. So [00:30:00] now completed three years of our integration where our multilingual learners were everywhere. And so really did some really intentional training for about, like, understanding WIDA indicators, what students can do on each of the levels, important scaffolds for students, having– making sure all teachers had both content objectives and language objectives, really showcasing some excellent multilingual learner specialists in our building who are doing excellent things.

And then we realized from our, our first year that despite us having integration everywhere and most of our multilingual learner specialist teachers being co-taught spaces, it really felt like the general education teacher was at the front and our specialists were kinda at the back like aides, despite them, you know, being certified teachers.

And so in thinking through with our academic leadership team, we create a– we kind of shifted our professional development from our teachers instead of just doing like, “We’re doing scaffolds, we’re providing all these resources,” to be like, “No, like we have two educators in the room, and you both are experienced and have different qualities to you and can educate [00:31:00] kids in various different ways.”

And so really kind of focused for our s- our, our instruction became what we call parallelism and making sure that every classroom, no matter what time of day it was or what the subject was, that each teacher was teaching either parallel or in small group stations. Singletons had those stations too. When thinking about your student data, your levels, if students had missed a significant portion of their learning, what are some way for them to kinda reenter your classroom, and what kind of support did you need to give that student?

So that was really what we’d been doing the past two years, is just thinking about like what is parallelism, what is parallel teaching, how to use student data to really think through. And doesn’t matter if you’re multilingual learner, general education student, student with the IEP or a combination of all those.

Like, students master and acquire information in different ways and at different times and may do really well on one skill but not another. And so really using that student data and really just saying like, “You’re both teachers in this space.” It’s not like you’re the specialist, you’re the general education teacher.

You’re all teachers for all these students, and how do [00:32:00] we kind of really use your skills and what the students need and the data to really make sure that instruction’s happening? So the intentional focus with planning, walkthroughs, coaching for teachers is

really s- around that. And so Definitely have a way to go, but thinking about transitioning to my new building, that’s something that they started last year that they said it was not as successful. So I’m excited to see, again, listen and learn, and see what kind of supports and what ways to kind of strengthen that co-teaching model at the elementary level.

So again, it’s not just like the persons in the corner are just working with a small group of students, but like, you know, language and access is for everybody, and so how do you kind of really use those adults in a way that’s meaningful that allows for kids to really excel? 

Mandi Morris: That is big work, and something that I heard you say that I really appreciate is that, like, even if the first year is messy, I think you described it as like the first year was like, get all your anxious energy out.

So like all the questions, all the… I love that you and your prior admin just created space for that. Because I think there’s nothing more [00:33:00] stressful as an educator as like it’s, you know, pre-service, kids are in the building in four days, and guess what, guys? Like, we are starting this whole new big thing, and like, good luck, everyone.

Yeah. I, I love hearing you as an admin and, you know, your, your team of admin having that approach of like, “Hey, we’re just accepting this first year is probably gonna be a little bit messy. That’s okay. This is the time for like the, and we’re gonna learn from it, and we’re gonna listen, and we’re gonna take feedback.”

Your human-centered heart goes beyond just students. It’s about teachers as well, and we know that students can’t do their best if teachers feel like they’re not in a space to do their best. So I feel like it’s, it’s really cool to hear you from an admin perspective just creating space and holding space for teachers to also have, like, their freak-out moments.

I 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: know we all do. I mean, we– I just sat in training for our district for the past couple days, and there, you know, there’s a couple new initiatives, and I, this is, this time and space to also have my little freak-out before I think about, like, how do I contextualize this for my staff, and what does this mean to roll this out in a way that’s meaningful and not on the, you know, “Hey, [00:34:00] school starts next week.

You have to set up your classroom.” Like, you have to, like, also go to all these trainings. Like, just thinking through, and that’s something I’ve been thinking about with my new leadership team too, is like, how do we, you know, that week before kids start is really important for teachers. There’s some things that, you know, we have to go over.

We have to go over, like, emergency procedures and go over data, and they have to go to trainings. But, like, what are some ways that, like, we can kind of schedule out throughout the September to really kind of, like, cascade the learning instead of, like, fire hose the week before, and then, you know, getting upset with teachers about not retaining it when they’re like, “There’s all these things coming at me.”

So we’re definitely, something I’ve been thinking about. ‘Cause again, teachers are doing the hard work of being in front of kids every day and trying to, you know, differentiate, you know, provide authentic opportunities and all the other things they have to do. So just what are some ways to think through and have it manageable for teachers so that they could s- be successful.

I 

Andrew Brandt: wanna be on your, like, as, as I’m listening to this, I’m like thinking about if I’m one of those teachers, and what I’m hearing isn’t lower expectations. What [00:35:00] I’m hearing is like create mainstay, create space and hey, let’s embrace the expectations with the space to, hey, it’s scary. Mm-hmm. That’s normal.

That’s okay. I’m here with you. And as I’m listening to you, I’m like, okay, the feeling I get if I’m one of your teachers is like the expectations are high But we, we’re in it to- Let’s just start. Let’s just take the steps one at a time. Let’s go. And that’s, like, a great energy, not just for in creating space, but you’re also, like, expecting the most for your t- As, as I’m kind of channeling that feeling right now, I’m like, that’s what I want from my leaders.

So yeah, can I be on your team? 

Mandi Morris: Come on. Go on down, Andrew. I was at a conference recently, and the way it was structured was just unlike any conference I’ve ever been at. They had a lot of very purposeful talk, and, you know, like, sentence frames set up for it, and accountability for the talk at the tables.

It was so cool, and it created relationships at a conference unlike I’ve experienced in the past. And I mean, kind of like a PLC almost would in a building, right? And in one of those conversations, a teacher who [00:36:00] was there, as part of, like, the conversation flow, she had said that, like, one of her strengths was pivoting in the classroom and responding to student, to students’ needs.

And then later, as the conversation, like, got more intimate, and, like, the, the probing questions were like, oh, like, tugging at your heart. And she said, “You know, actually, if I’m being real, when I say that I pivot, I think sometimes I lower rigor, because I don’t know in that moment how to hold kids accountable.

I don’t have the… I don’t know what scaffold to use, or I don’t have the scaffold, or I don’t have the time, or I’ve got, you know, so many kids that need so many different things at the same time.” And she’s like, “I’m saying that I pivot, but I think I’m, I’m really just like, I don’t know what to do for that student, so I, like, lower the expectation.”

And I thought it was so brave of her to be that honest and vulnerable, because it is really hard. It’s really, really hard in the moment in the classroom to be able to make those pivots. And what I am hearing about the environment that you’re trying to build with teachers [00:37:00] is, like, a space for those o- open conversations and for that vulnerability.

And so much of our professional development in the field, it doesn’t really create space for that. It’s more of, like, “Here’s your new directive. You have to do this thing.” And I love that you called out, like, you’re trying to create a structure to avoid, like, the fire hose of pre-service, and it’s more of, like, a slow rollout, which also inherently creates more space for teachers to, like, have those honest and vulnerable conversations amongst themselves and with admin.

But that’s where the power of change comes from, right, is when a teacher can say the, “I’m, I’m lowering rigor, because I don’t know what to do in the moment.” Like, that’s where the real learning comes. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean, but we’ve all done that before. We’ve all had a kid in front of us, and you just don’t know what to do, and you still have, like, 30 minutes left on the, the schedule.

So, like, you just do what you have best in the moment. But y- that was so brave for that teacher to say, and I think that’s what the power of, you know, going to conferences or talking to other educators or using those professional [00:38:00] development communities, professional learning communities, is that, you know, if it’s in a space where- Teachers can trust and they feel like the support that they’re gonna get is not gonna be punitive or evaluative, then that’s where the really, the learning really happens, and their teachers are able to take risks and take to be innovative to support students.

So yeah, that was really brave of a teacher. I don’t know if I don’t know if I still would’ve been so u- upcoming with- with strangers, but yeah, that’s- that’s again, a testament to the- the moderators of that conference and that session, and then, you know, how to, again, how do we think through conditions for our teachers to have those opportunities to be their authentic self in the way that’s meaningful and productive and also, you know, creates, you know, shared learning.

Mandi Morris: Andrew, I feel like this is- this is like your, this is your happy space, like getting into like I can tell he’s reflecting and thinking and getting into all of the emotion behind the work. I mean, it’s ha- it’s hard work, you know. It really, really is. And I think because, like you said earlier, Dr. Wilkinson, like a teacher’s day is t- students in front of them.

And when you’re, you’re on [00:39:00] all day long, and like that inherently does not create a lot of space for reflection, and then that reflection impacting your next steps. And I think that’s the part of if you aren’t an educator, if you haven’t been an educator in the classroom, that is really hard from the outside to understand.

And n- I- I think it’s really important for admin when you think about, you know, building out what systems look like for professional learning or- or, you know, communities within your school. You create that space with a lot of intention. It doesn’t just happen on its own, right? Like, teachers, like a- have an opportunity to create spaces for their teachers to take a breath, to have reflection.

I think that’s like a really powerful, like, next move that’s needed for teachers to be able to grow their craft and their practice. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: What we’ve done this past year is kind of split teachers into interdisciplinary teams, ’cause again, like a lot of time, like the English departm- especially for secondary, the English department will sit together.

You know, the multilingual learner [00:40:00] specialists will be together. The PE teachers are together. And so we’re intentional about having interdisciplinary ’cause again, we don’t have those opportunities where you get to talk to other teachers from other disciplines about what works for them and what- what challenges they also face, which are many times very similar challenges.

I really had an opportunity for a small group of about 15 teachers to do s- like a book study on their own where they led the questions and the inquiry, and then we work with them about like what that product- what the production looked like in their classroom. And so transitioning into this new school, I’m thinking about like, again, just being a sponge and just learning, but just thinking through like as I continue to, you know, collect more information and learn more about this school.

I’ve also been thinking about like how do we really differentiate professional development for teachers? ‘Cause again, like a novice teacher needs something very different from experienced teachers. And, you know, teachers need different supports at different times of the year, especially when you come closer to like, you know, assessments or, you know, when you’re introducing a new unit or a concept or if there’s a new curriculum rollout.

So that’s something I’ve been thinking about too going to this year, like- [00:41:00] Probably to start like term two around November, like once they get to know teachers and the students and the needs and figuring out like how do I, within the structures that’s already been set, create spaces for teachers to work with one another and to kind of really be intentional about professional development.

‘Cause again, our experienced teachers need something very different from newbies or teaching for five years, or even teachers that have switched subjects or grades too. 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. No, and Mandi, you’re right. I’m, I’ve been pausing and ab- and absorbing this for a bit ’cause This is just the, the part that really strikes near to my heart.

But it’s also a spot where sometimes I know it’s a little bit of my soapbox, so sometimes I pause and I’m like, “Okay, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna take over with a filter that I tend to see a lot of and see the w- the way I see life.” But yeah, I guess what I’d add to what you were just saying is that I think that we do a lot to figure out how to best serve our s- And when you stop and think about it, our teachers are students who ha- need these things.

Giving them that, both that space to be themselves and to show their uniqueness and apply themselves, and take [00:42:00] on new hard things in bites, and having that space right there is so important. And as well as creating that space, both teachers for themselves, and then hopefully the structures can help reinforce the space to breathe and reflect and sharpen.

It’s what our students benefit from. It’s what we benefit from. And helps us show up and be our best selves. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, something that I’ve been thinking about too is, again, like because I’m coming into a new space, a lot of the structures have already been set, and so just thinking through … And again, this is, you know, for other school leaders to think about too, is like if the sh- within the structures you’ve already set, how do you kind of innovate and just use that time differently?

And so I was at a training this week with my instructional coaches and my assistant principal, and we were talking through, like what does it look like for teachers to co-plan in a meaningful way with, you know, their specialists or aides or other people? And again, there’s just not enough hours in the day, and so we were trying to be innovative about like their, you know, it’s a requirement to have a faculty meeting once a month for an hour after school.

And so we were trying to, you know, just thinking through, like what i- what if that faculty meeting isn’t reviewing [00:43:00] field trip requests and, you know, other operational things that could be in an email or a newsletter. How maybe if that’s a time for other teachers to sh- to sh- to present on what’s going well in their classroom or something exemplary that they’re doing in a way that is, you know, there’s no kids in the building after school, except, you know, o- obviously after care.

But there should be no kids in, there’s no kids in front of you. You don’t have to worry about picking kids up from lunch or, you know, somebody, you know, s- somebody has an accident or whatever. Like that is just like dedicated space. You already know that’s for adults. And so just thinking through what does that time look like.

And so again, and really about, like you said, creating space for teachers to have that, but also, you know, working within the system that you already have to really be innovative. And really thinking through like is the, is this a good use of time, and what could be, what is a priority, and what do we need to really think through for this time?

Mandi Morris: I wanna like pull on this thread a little bit more. I was talking with an admin recently. He’s been in education for, I think he said 50 years. He had just retired, and he towards the end of, like the maybe the last [00:44:00] 15 years of his career, he was an admin for a, a preschool building. It was like through the public school system, right?

And he was talking about how he would section off a part of his budget every year, and his whole staff, they would do a conference together. He was just- Remembering the camaraderie that it built and the relationship bonding that it built. And, and, you know, your notes that you filled out for today’s podcast, the word joy caught my eye.

And we’ve talked with some of our guests in the past, you know, about joy, just like the joy of what brought you to this work, and that really stood out to me from, you know, the notes that you had submitted. And hearing you, this, the conversation just about, you know, teachers and the connection to the work and the connection to the students, it’s reminding me of this admin.

And I was sitting there listening to him like, man, that’s so cool. Like, I love that you did that. Like, you had such intentionality around building relationship with your teachers, and that joy that through the [00:45:00] entire year for them and all of the work. And, and he was talking specifically about when there were times that he had to say no if they had a request, or if there were times where it was like, you know, there’s sometimes some sharp feedback around areas of improvement, but there was the relationship that was there, and then that created a foundation for feedback throughout the school.

I feel like fewer and fewer people are attending conferences as budgets just have shrunk for that. I would Love to hear you think some about, you know, in your 15-plus years in education, how do you foster in the building, and you just spoke to it a little bit, but how do you foster that opportunity for just connection and relationship that, that we got when we got to go away to conferences together that might be harder to do now?

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: First of all, I wanna be on that administrator’s school team to go to conferences every year. Just being in a- as a parent, like be- having in a hotel room by yourself without little people and ordering room service sounds amazing. But I think, again, it’s just thinking about structures that are already in place, and there’s a [00:46:00] couple times at my previous school where you just use faculty meetings just to have meditation or some people who are dancers and have some, some dancing or yoga or just showcase some of their talents.

And just again, finding ways within the structures that you do have in your school to have moments where it’s not focused on data or teaching or all the other things that educators are called to do, but just really moments of connection in ways that is meaningful and feels rejuvenated. We had a social worker at the one– the last session we did where she just did aromatherapy, and we just sat there in the library and just made our own scents in little spray bottles so we can spray when we just needed a little break.

And I had no idea that she knew a lot about aromatherapy unless she w- kind of asked teachers about what are some ways that you can lead and kinda show up. So I think just, again, finding ways to do that, too. And then opportunities to celebrate is just leaving a note for somebody when we have huddles or faculty meetings, giving people a shout-out or allowing other people to give each other shout-outs and just really [00:47:00] celebrating each other, not only through their professional accomplishments and also personal, I think is ways to kinda bring connection, too.

And again, it takes time to build trust and build those relationships, so again, that’s something I know I have to– I definitely have been thinking about and ways to build that, those deposits for those emotional bank accounts that I now have with my new team. But again, just thinking through, like how do you just ask them about themselves, create connections, and then again, finding structures within the existing school day or s- school schedule to really think about how do we showcase one another and just have a good time.

Andrew Brandt: This has been an awesome conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it. We’re almost– we’re getting t- near the end of our time, so I– We’ve got a few questions we wanna ask, and I wanna kick it off with just a real simple one. I would love to know for administrators who are jumping into a new role, and now m-maybe the principal as you are, or maybe it’s an ML- directors stepping into that.

What advice do you have for somebody stepping into a newer role? 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: That’s a loaded question. I feel like the spot is gonna appear from the ceiling. I think it just goes back to what I said [00:48:00] earlier, that it’s okay to feel like a novice, and okay not to have the answers. And really just lean on your, your own personal networks or finding somebody that has a similar role maybe in a different school or a different space to kind of be like your partner or your pal, so if you do have questions, you can ask them and just kind of just get some clarity.

And I think just be a sponge. It’s okay to ask questions. It’s okay to just receive information and not necessarily have an answer or be able to process it, and just give your, yourself some time and space to just be like, “You know what? That’s a really great question. I don’t have the answer right now.

I’m happy to get back to you.” That’s something I’ve been definitely doing a lot myself moving into this new role, but again, it’s about learning, and I’m a novice. So I’m new to this, this school community. I’m new to this role, and it’s okay to be a newbie. I’m gonna make mistakes. It’s okay. Just giving yourself some grace.

Andrew Brandt: Yeah, I love it. Embrace the vulnerability. Embrace the reality that- We can’t do everything 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: 100%. 

Andrew Brandt: That’s good. Okay, Mandi, you get the next one. 

Mandi Morris: Yeah. Well, I don’t know if this technically would fall under the category of rapid fire, but I, I have to ask. I mean, you’ve got two young kids, four [00:49:00] and eight, you’re working full time.

I know what the life of an elementary school admin looks like. So you know, it’s a lot of hours, and, and you have a PhD. Like, how have you balanced all of that, and what advice do you have for other educators listening who, you know, maybe want to move into administration or move like, say like I want to, you know, get my master’s or move towards my PhD?

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Yeah, I would definitely say I’m grateful ’cause I ha- my husband is a great spouse and partner and dad, and so if there’s times where I’m just not able to be present or support our kiddos, him and my family and my in-laws have been really good about supporting our kiddos. But also there’s times, like I just drag my kids to school.

There’s a couple days where my eight-year-old did not have school, and he was my little helper for the day. Or like I’m dragging kids to the football and basketball games. And so again, like we spend, as educators, this is like our second home ’cause we spend a lot of hours in these buildings. And so it’s really nice to have those opportunities where like both your home and your family kind of can collide, and they can really see what you experience and [00:50:00] also feel that, that sense of community too.

I would just say for transitioning in, it’s just when I go home, I turn the phone off, and I, if I need to check email, I’ll do it like after bedtime so I’m really being present for my kiddos and really like we’re having conversations at dinner, we’re reading stories, we do movie nights on Friday. So just having those structures in place and really prioritizing the time for them so that they get 100% of me, to the best of my ability obviously.

Some days are not 100%, but just getting the most of me that they can so that they feel a connection and love when I am not impeded by other responsibilities. 

Mandi Morris: I love that, turning off your phone. That’s a power move. That’s really good. 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: Put the phone down in the kitchen, and then I’m usually up on another, like on my second floor.

And so if somebody needs me, the phone is not near me, and you’re gonna have to wait. 

Andrew Brandt: I love that. Okay, last one, unless of course Mandi thinks of another one. Last one for me. What, where do you go on for your own edification or own content? Whether it’s a recent book you’ve loved or a thought leader that you’re following, what’s, what’s filling your cup?

These days 

Dr. Simone Wilkinson: I would say two things. [00:51:00] I’ve been rereading James Clear’s Atomic Habits, just thinking about this new role and what habits I need to create as a new school leader in a new community. So that’s been really helpful to re-evaluate what I’m doing and what I need to put into place. I’ve also kind of used it for teachers too, right?

If we think about teachers trying a new skill and having that become really second nature for them and not for them to think about, just thinking through, like, how do we use coaching and support and really making systems in place for teachers to also have good habits so that whatever skill you want them to work on isn’t not disappear when you leave the room or when you’re not co-planning with them.

I’d also say that a really big book that I read this year that has been really shifted the way I think about instruction is Zaretta Hammond’s book, Rebuilding Students’ Learning Power. I had an opportunity to do a couple professional development sessions with her throughout the course of the year based on the book with our teachers here at my previous school, and just reading about what it means for students to be independent thinkers and what are some systems and structures that teachers need to put in place so that we’re, especially, again, for multilingual learners, just because you give them the sentence starter in September does not mean they [00:52:00] need it in April.

And so, like, how do we think about reducing over-scaffolding so kids have second nature for a lot of those skills, either for content or language, and really thinking through what are some routines that students can become in place so that it doesn’t matter where they are in the world, they’re able to really be thoughtful and to think through what’s in front of them to be, again, excellent human beings, but also empowered, empowered adults.

Andrew Brandt: Love it. Always a learner. You’re always a learner, I can tell. 

Mandi Morris: This has been such a delightful conversation. It’s been wonderful to get to know you, and I’m really excited for you in this new chapter you’re starting for your teachers, and you will have to check in and let us know how those, I’m calling them family dinners, but the the potluck.

I just, I think you got a great year ahead of you, and there’s no doubt that all of the humility that you’re bringing into this new role, and you s- you mentioned multiple times, just learn and listen. I think you’re gonna have a great year. So thank you, Dr. Wilkinson, for your time and for joining the ML Chat 

[00:53:00] podcast.