Carlene Thomas: [00:00:00] This is what I always like to say, how we support emerging bilinguals is the idea of good for all, necessary for some, right? The things that we do to support multilingual learners, yeah, sounds like good teaching, right? Check. But the reality is it’s, yes, foundationally good teaching that can benefit all students, but it’s necessary for our emerging bilingual students.

Andrew Brandt: Welcome to the ML Chat podcast. I am your host, Andrew Brandt. I just got done having a fun conversation with Carlene Thomas, who like all of our guests, is passionate about serving multilingual students. It was fun to see where she went, and I think the common thread that stood out to me is she’s passionate about doing the work of building the systems and processes that can impact as many multilingual students as possible.

And on top of that, building the capacity of the teachers and leaders who are building the programs that are serving these students. 

Carlene Thomas: It [00:01:00] was a conversation that hit on a lot of different topics. I think you’re really gonna enjoy it. Let’s go. 

Andrew Brandt: Carlene Thomas is the CEO of Carlene Thomas Consulting, where she partners with districts to design and implement equitable programs for multilingual learners.

With experience ranging from ESL teacher to state level leadership at the Texas Education Agency, she brings deep expertise in supporting schools to better serve multilingual students and their families. Carlene, welcome to the ML Chat podcast. We are super excited to, to have you here. 

Carlene Thomas: Thanks, Andrew. So happy to be here.

Andrew Brandt: So I’m looking forward to this conversation. I do wanna call out that I am flying solo today. Mandi and I were prepping, and actually had Carlene, Carlene was on with me when we were prepping, and Mandi got a phone call, one of those phone calls as parents you never wanna get from the school. Unfortunately, Mandi’s son made his trip to the emergency room.

So fortunately, I don’t think it’s anything like life-threatening here, but it’s definitely one of those moments as a mom, you say, “Hey, I gotta call an audible. I gotta go.” We, at the same time, we wanted to have this conversation. We’re super [00:02:00] excited to have it and said, “You know what? Instead of postponing, let’s just go,” and wish Mandi and her son the best.

Carlene, there are so many directions I’m excited to go with this. I think the best place to start is- Maybe with what you’re doing right now. Tell us a little bit about your role, what you’re up to, and then we’re gonna go from there. 

Carlene Thomas: Thank you so much, Andrew. I’m up to a lot. I like to have my hand in many pots, and one of the reasons that I enjoy doing the consulting work that I have is that I’ve been able to really increase my advocacy and my participation in advocacy organizations.

So one, I do exhibits coordination for the National Association for Bilingual Education, helping to run their conferences. And so we just came back from Chicago in February with a successful conference there, so enjoy that. I’m also on the board for the National Association for English Learner Program Administrators, NAELPA, serving as the co-chair of the membership committee, and so constantly involved in [00:03:00] that.

We have an upcoming webinar that I’ll assist with, and just putting out resources to program administrators that are serving multilingual learners across the US and ensuring that they’re armed with resources. I’m also serving on the leadership team for the National Newcomer Network. We are a coalition of state, state agencies, pe- folks that work there, folks that work at local education agencies across the US, immigrant advocacy organizations, to really advocate for the rights of recently arrived immigrant students and their families, and so excited to do that work.

And of course, I have my work of working with school districts and state agencies with providing professional development and instructional coaching, getting into classrooms, helping do program evaluations for districts on the effectiveness of their multilingual learner programs, and some district-wide systems.

How to increase, for instance, and set up and [00:04:00] start dual language immersion programs for school districts. So a wide range of things that I’m currently doing. 

Andrew Brandt: Corline, you are involved in so many things. It’s phenomenal to see engaged in both impacting students and teachers, but also district and state level instruction that’s gonna improve outcomes for our ML students across the country.

Now maybe we’ll start with where we first found you from the ML Chat podcast side. You gave a session in Texas where, for those that don’t know outside Texas, Texas is undergoing a change and update in their, in their standards, in their language standards. And you were giving a session to the Region 13 that caught a lot of great attention and made it our way, and so we wanna have you on because this is something that even for those of our listeners who are outside of Texas, it’s not uncommon that a state might be updating their standards, might be making some changes to make better alignment with student outcomes.

And so even though, even though it’s, what you’re speaking to is specific to Texas, really I think it [00:05:00] applies to a lot of states. But then I think to a certain extent, all, everybody as far as like aligning the work we’re doing- With the why behind the assessment. Tell us a little bit about what’s going on in Texas with ELPA.

Carlene Thomas: So you’re exactly right. There is– there should always be a con- a connection from the English language proficiency standards, whether that’s WIDA or ELPA21 in a state, or whether it’s in Texas, the TELPAS, the English language proficiency standards here in Texas. Because Texas, we’re like our own country.

We have to do our own thing, right? But across that, there should be a connection from the standards themselves to actual classroom instruction. And I think one big component, Andrew, of the improvements in Texas is not only do we have the student expectations, which we use to write language objectives that connect to our content objectives in the lesson, and we don’t also just have our proficiency level descriptors that help us to identify what [00:06:00] level students are at.

One of the improvements in the proficiency level descriptors, for instance, here in Texas, is we went from four levels to five le- five levels, and also made those connections directly to each content area. So a lot of specificity now in those. So not only do we have those wonderful changes, but also within what we call the district responsibilities or general requirements and the introduction, there is key information that has been added and increased in those sections explaining the how and why behind implementing the ELPA.

So, for instance, in the introduction, it mentions an assets-based approach. It mentions using the cultural and linguistic funds of knowledge of our students and their families. It talks about culturally and linguistically sustaining practices being a foundation to the approach we take with serving emergent bilingual students that we refer to here in [00:07:00] Texas.

So that’s what I’m really excited about, is seeing the continuity of, yes, we have to implement the standards. Yes, we have to ensure that we’re using content-based instruction approaches to drive language and embed language instruction into our content instruction, but we wanna do it with an assets-based mindset, and that is huge.

Andrew Brandt: No, that’s phenomenal. So I think it’s clear to see and clear to say that you see the update in the ELPS as being a very valuable and important thing that’s gonna have a positive impact on students. What advice do you have for a teacher or a director who might be a little overwhelmed by a change to ELPS that have been there for so many years, and a change to the process they already know?

Carlene Thomas: So that’s a good question. Change is always fun, always a little bit difficult, but I think that there’s also some consistencies to keep in mind. So the way that we approach our students by embedding [00:08:00] the standards themselves in the content instruction, that’s the same, right? The marriage, if you will, between the content and the language, that’s the same.

The way we integrate listening, speaking, reading, and writing, those receptive and expressive skills, the implementation of that is the same, right? Now, the standards themselves have really been simplified. There’s not as many to consider, right? They’ve also been organized very clearly, like I mentioned, specifically into the content areas.

So now it’s a little more clear. If I’m a math teacher, what can I really focus on? How can I see the proficiency levels of my students and analyze those according to my content area, and how that might present itself in my content area? So I think looking for some of the similarities in how we integrate language instruction across the content areas, that’s really hasn’t changed.

It’s just looking at how we’re implementing these [00:09:00] exact standards and recognizing now we have five proficiency levels, which should help us really show more incremental growth of our students, whereas before we were trying to squish that into only four proficiency levels. So I think in that, there is an ease to understanding that the methods of instruction haven’t changed.

The way in which we integrate listening, speaking, reading, and writing into content instruction, that hasn’t changed. It’s just matching to those new standards. 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah, so what I’m hearing is really the w- they’ve kept the good and the, the process is very similar. It’s more simplified, more aligned, and the switch from four to five is more specificity to what level the students are operating at and where they are.

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. 

Andrew Brandt: What are you seeing across the state as this transition is in, in, in movement? What, any concerns, any pushbacks that, that you think is important to address? 

Carlene Thomas: Directly with the ELPS [00:10:00] instruction, do you mean? 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. 

Carlene Thomas: So I think as it relates to implementing the ELPS, I think any kind of pushback is Really just logistics, right?

It’s understanding what’s required of the district and maybe what is just a district’s implementation. So many times when there’s anything new, such as implementation of new ELPS, usually we see some pushback, but it’s more related to how the district’s choosing to implement it, where they’ll say, “We have to do X, Y, Z.”

No, that’s not exactly what the law is requiring. That’s what your district is requiring, right? Mm-hmm. And so we have to really hone in on what is actually being required of us within the ELPS implementation, for instance, in this case, versus maybe how your district is implementing those requirements, and making sure that our district policies align with what’s [00:11:00] actually required in law, and two, simplify that implementation for campus leaders and teachers who are actually on the front lines of implementing whatever is new, such as the ELPS.

Andrew Brandt: Yep. Yeah, no, and that’s, that’s an important call-out that there’s the law, there’s what’s being pushed out, but then there’s also each adaptation that the districts will employ. What advice do you have for district leadership or maybe an ML coordinator or director, and maybe specifically more a director who’s more in a role of, of crafting what that looks like in their district?

Carlene Thomas: So I think just like for students, we need to have clear expectations and a simplified plan that is calendarized and chunked out, right? So just like we would scaffold for students, we want to scaffold for our teachers, right? So overarching, I think it’s important that we help to provide clear training and expectations on what the state is requiring of us, how to [00:12:00] implement the ELPS, and what those expectations are.

For instance, planning for language objectives in the classroom, planning for that differentiated support to reach those ELPS expectations in the classroom. So on one hand, it’s setting the expectation clearly so that teachers know what’s needed of them, making sure that they actually know who are my multilingual learners, my emergent bilingual students in the classroom.

What are– where do I find their data, their TELPAS data or their ELP assessment data? Where do I find that, and how do I know their levels? So on one hand, it’s being very clear as to what the expectations are and how can I actually find the information. And then from there, okay, if there’s all these things we want to focus on rolling this out- We need to chunk that, right?

Let’s first just focus on writing language objectives in our lessons. Let’s just focus in on that as a step one, and we’ll help monitor that [00:13:00] implementation. We’ll celebrate that implementation as folks are doing it well. We’ll use teacher leaders who are doing well at that to support other teachers who are needing assistance, right?

So we build those systems in, and then, okay, now we’re gonna work more on the actual implementation of demonstration of those student expectations through expressive skills like speaking and writing, so we’re gonna focus on that next, right? This is just an example. But I’m chunking that and then calendarizing my follow-up because you know what, what doesn’t make it on the calendar doesn’t happen, right?

So as district leaders and even campus leaders, we wanna make sure it makes it to the calendar with that chunked support so that there’s those clear expectations that are actually followed through on in a methodical way. 

Andrew Brandt: Wow. Wow. So yeah, really what I’m hearing first off, and I think for the students, clear is kind.

Carlene Thomas: 100%. 

Andrew Brandt: Clear they know the objective, and they know what’s [00:14:00] expected of them. I think the other thing that just stands out for what you’re just saying is maybe slow is smooth and smooth is fast, that this is really take it one step at a time. There’s a long, it is a long game and creating a process. I loved your comment about the follow-up and calendaring that and making sure there’s adequate follow-up.

I’d love to dive deeper into that and just see, now is that, I’m guessing, so you’ve got your consulting business. Is that part of what, part of your work is really helping districts build this structure that they could implement district-wide? 

Carlene Thomas: 100%. You know, what I love about the work that I’m able to do is do the macro and micro views of things, supporting districts with, okay, let’s make district systems for this, right?

Helping them to build those programmatic structures for their bilingual ESL programs, ensuring we have the structures in place to not only just train people, [00:15:00] but train them with then ongoing support. So how can we build the system to roll things out like this? But then also what I love to do is to get on the ground really with the campus leaders as well as the instructional leaders, the teachers, and be able to provide that direct professional development, and then also even some coaching aligned with that.

I can come in and do a fun fancy training, whoop whoop, and we all have fun and go home. But if we don’t have any of that follow-up, whether that’s me or me helping supporting your instructional leaders and instructional coaches in your district to then follow through, someone has to follow through or else we don’t have strong implementation.

Andrew Brandt: Oh, yeah. I– What does that follow-up look like? How much does that take? ‘Cause I think you’re absolutely right, and I’d love to dive into this a little bit deeper just for those who may or may not bring you in to do the consulting, or maybe they have and maybe they are gonna use their own team. But is the follow-up big, complicated, long, extensive, or can it [00:16:00] be relatively easy and light?

It’s just… Tell me more about that. 

Carlene Thomas: Yeah. So the way that I think that follow through actually happens in an effective way is if it’s integrated into the overarching district instructional plan and system. Because if it’s only that, okay, we’ve got this separate thing now that we need to, for instance, monitor the implementation of content-based instruction or the ELPS integration, and we have it isolated, right, it’s not gonna be as effective.

But if we integrate by cross-training, for instance, with content area specialists or content area coaches, and we work with maybe the curriculum team for other content areas or just ensuring that those connections for the content areas are also working with the multilingual department, those instructional leaders, that they’re connected.

So that’s [00:17:00] one. And then also, if the district has other instructional systems that they’re putting in place, like maybe a book or another general instructional training that all teachers have taken, that we align and show the connection of that along with the ELPS exp- expectations or the content-based instructional methods.

Doing some crosswalks of that, right? So for instance, here in Texas, we have the T-TESS, right, which is more of an evaluative tool, right? So that’s one example where, you know, they have these expectations from T-TESS. Let’s align that with the expectations that we’re training folks on as it relates to supporting emergent bilingual students, and help them to see the connection so that it doesn’t feel like this other thing, this separate thing over here.

So integrating the staff into cross-training and ensuring then that we [00:18:00] integrate with district-wide instructional plan. 

Andrew Brandt: I love it. You make it sound so easy. 

Carlene Thomas: Simple, not easy, right, Andrew? 

Andrew Brandt: I love the simplicity, though, with, with which you talk about it. I think that’s actually an interesting distinction there is, as you talk about simple, not easy.

Tell me what you mean there. 

Carlene Thomas: So the reality is many times we’re looking for a silver bullet, right? We’re looking for something way out here that we’ve never heard of before, that we’re just gonna implement that thing and then, whoop, student growth, right? Or second language acquisition, it’s just gonna happen in a snap, and implementation is just gonna happen in a snap.

There’s no silver bullet. Anything that we implement takes time and intention Right? So it is simple in that if we coordinate our expectations with our overarching district systems, and we are systematic in doing that, we will yield high success. But the reason that that, that is very simple, right? This is what I always like to say, [00:19:00] how we support emergent bilinguals is the idea of good for all, necessary for some, right?

The things that we do to support multilingual learners, yeah, sounds like good teaching, right? Check. But the reality is it’s, yes, foundationally good teaching that can benefit all students, but it’s necessary for our emergent bilingual students. If they don’t receive that targeted and intentional language instruction, that’s when we can see them slip through the cracks.

So yes, it is foundationally simple, right? It’s not some far-off thing. But yes, it is though not easy because it takes that time and intention with integration and making sure that, honestly, sometimes our egos can get in the way. “Well, that’s a curriculum department thing. Oh, that’s a multilingual department thing,” or, “That’s a content area.

That’s a this. That’s your student,” right? And we’re pointing and we’re pushing, and that’s where sometimes it’s not as easy [00:20:00] because we’re not lowering our egos, if you will, of our departments or our classrooms, and really seeing the higher purpose to make it simple for who we’re here to serve. That’s our students.

Andrew Brandt: It’s fun. As you talked, I’m just look- I’m just kind of processing through some threads of our conversation and just seeing this idea of simplicity in a lot of different places. Going back to your comment about, which I summarized as, as clear, as kind for students, but like simplifying for students the intentionality, the intention of both the assessment and then of course simplifying for teachers.

What you’re saying that the ELPS, the new ELPS are doing is helping simplify the learning journey and what we’re expecting for students and for teachers to be able to deliver. We’re simplifying that. And then now as we talk about the implementation, finding a way to, to make it simple for your teachers and for your leaders to align.

Such an interesting … So I’m curious, I want to dive into your background a bit because as we interview [00:21:00] amazing thought leaders on the podcast, it’s fun to see the different backgrounds, but then that co- that crafted these great perspectives that bring great value to their organizations. Where did you start in education?

What’s your story? 

Carlene Thomas: Wow. Right out of college, I moved to Beijing, China and taught at a university there in Beijing, and I think that’s where my love for second language learners began, my interest in it. When I returned to the States, I had been an elementary education major in college, in my undergrad, and when I got out there, I quickly realized- Yeah, older kids.

Okay. And so I transitioned into secondary. Middle school was my jam, okay. I found my niche in middle school, loved teaching in middle school. And really, I think for me, a turning point was actually a key moment with my principal at a middle school at the time. And quick story [00:22:00] is I was walking down the hall at the start of the school year, and actually unfortunately, we had lost in a tragic accident our ESL teacher who had, who was teaching our newcomer students, she was also the LPAC chair, and here in Texas, of course, the LPAC is like the compliance, the Language Proficiency Assessment Committee.

We tragically lost her in an accident right before the school year started. So we were a few weeks into the school year, and we were missing her role. And the … I’m walking down the hall, my principal stops me in the hallway, Mr. Valdez, and he said to me, “Hey, Thomas, you care about English learners. Wanna be the LPAC chair?”

And I was like, “Sure?” And of course, little did I know that one moment in the hallway with my principal changed my trajectory. Because from there, yes, I became the LPAC chair. I had to learn the compliance. I, I was basically after school crying every day, [00:23:00] learning all the paperwork and all the compliance, all the rules.

And that moment, though, then shifted me into, by the next year, I was also teaching the newcomer students, and I was also coaching teachers. I had increased then going and getting more training that was English learner-focused, and receiving that from here locally, one of our regional centers, Region 10 at the time, here in Texas.

And then eventually after doing that, I then became an ESL director in a school district, and then from there I worked for the regional center as an ESL migrant consultant, and then I worked for the state as the state’s ESL program coordinator. I really appreciate that moment because I think what he saw in me, remembering what he said was, “You care about English learners.”

And I think I hadn’t had a role or a title next to my name as ESL teacher, but he saw that I was constantly advocating for my students even though I didn’t really know or [00:24:00] understand what was best for them yet. And he saw that in me, and that really shifted my trajectory. 

Andrew Brandt: Wow. No, that’s beautiful. In that moment that you reflect on and say, “Okay, this is a moment where an opportunity came up,” and really it was scary, it was challenging.

Um, shout out to the principal who had the awareness to say, “There’s somebody who cares, and we have a need,” and to ask. And really though, it was your moment to say yes, and you had, of course, had done a lot of preparation to be there, and had the courage to say, “I am- I feel under equipped to do this job, especially compared to the big shoes that you said that were there already.

But I’m gonna take it on and go. And so shout out to you taking that challenge. 

Carlene Thomas: For sure. It was a lot of sleepless nights, that’s for sure. 

Andrew Brandt: I’m sure it was. I’m curious, I’m seeing a trend here. So you went from one end to from an elementary ed focus to teaching adults. And actually before I go on, I wanna dive into that.

What prompted going to China and teaching adults when [00:25:00] you had a background in elementary ed? 

Carlene Thomas: Actually, China had also had always been really a part of me growing up. I was very interested in China from a very young age. And I just knew that after college, that’s where I wanted to go. That’s what I wanted to do, was to go to China.

I had, in, in college I did visit, did a short visit with my university. But then I just knew I wanted a little bit longer. I wanted to try to live there and see what life was like and, and so yeah, it really was living out a passion that I’d had since being a child. 

Andrew Brandt: No, good for you. Another moment of just saying, “Yes, let’s go and figure it out and land.”

Carlene Thomas: Yeah, and you know what? I think it also really shaped my empathy as I then came back to work with multilingual learners because I had an experience of cross-cultural living and [00:26:00] cross-linguistic living, where I’d studied Chinese a little bit before I went, but I didn’t know much at all. And so having that experience, for instance, of sitting in rooms where I’m the only person who doesn’t speak Chinese fluently, and they’re all talking so fast, and I’m sitting there, “I’m smart.

I have things to say,” but not being able to say it. And I think about that moment, I thought about that moment a lot as I would work with my students to really help me put myself in their shoes. Of, and that, those were social situations, right? Not even academic situations. And so how much more difficult and frustrating that might be in an academic setting for students who maybe even be like, “Look, I’m smart.

I have things to say,” and not being able to yet express it in the language of instruction, and understanding what that feels like. 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. There is a lot of power to being able to have been in those shoes and feel what it’s like. I know what you mean. I know my [00:27:00] journey, I’ve spent a total of about three years living in Ecuador, Honduras, and Chile, and it’s just a very humbling experience to be in those rooms and conversations where you’re just like, “My brain does not keep up.”

And how to meet and try to figure out how to accomplish it, and just to recognize that’s what our students face- And every day, and they face it. When I was, I was an adult when I had, when I lived there, and so I was at a different level, um, both emotionally and cognitively. And to think of our, like, five-year-olds and our seven-year-olds and our 11-year-olds who are navigating so many things emotionally, academically, while also navigating language.

That’s a powerful opportunity that you took to go have that cultural experience. Good for you. I feel as we talk through your journey, I’m seeing there’s something that is pulling you to teaching adults. 

Carlene Thomas: Yeah. I 

Andrew Brandt: think you started out, I think as most have with, with education, that I think the, the common route is to get an education to teach kids, and obviously that’s where a lot of our teachers and our e- [00:28:00] educators are.

But there’s something that’s pulling you to adults. What is it? Am 

Carlene Thomas: I reading that right? What is 

Andrew Brandt: it that you love about teaching? 

Carlene Thomas: I think it’s about really, what I feel is that commonality is about teaching people who are at pivotal moments in their lives. You think about college students who are at pivotal decision-making moments in their lives.

Their minds are very moldable, right? They’re on this impetus. They’re learning what it’s like to be an adult, and so that’s exciting. I think it’s really the same in that middle school range, right, where they’re also such, such a pivotal, powerful time in their lives. And I think when it comes to teaching adults now with professional learning, it is another pivotal time where the impact of what I’m telling them, what we’re working through and learning together in those sessions impacts others, right?

I always consider how my work can increase [00:29:00] my sphere of influence, whether it’s directly or indirectly. So if I can get one teacher to get on board with what I’m saying, that’s gonna impact other adults that they have in their sphere as well as all the students and families. And in fact, I’ve had that experience.

I will tell you, Andrew, it’s so exciting when you get those moments of someone reaching out to you about the impact. I had a teacher in San Antonio recently who had reached out to me to say, “Your training session changed my life.” And it was just like my Mr. Valdez moment, where then she went on to begin studying.

She, I believe, started a master’s program and just dedicated her trajectory towards serving multilingual learners because of that one session. So I think for me, when it comes to teaching adults specifically, it’s about the ongoing impact that’s going to have for them and the people that they reach.

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. No, that’s beautiful. I love [00:30:00] that, and it’s true, and I think we all love- the work we can do when you can be there with the kids in the classroom, like in the trenches, and there’s a joy and a beauty in helping bring to life learning for students, for kids. But I love how you put that, that your opportunity to really impact students is actually can be greater by working with the teachers of those students.

‘Cause if you can impact in how effective they are at doing their work, now you go from being able to impact a classroom of 30 kids or whatever it is to really endless- Yeah … in serving those grownups in, in who are doing the work. 

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. There’s times that I’m working on, for instance, sys- like systematic planning with districts on their program implementation.

How are they going to not only get into compliance if needed, but also improve their program system? And I will get chills just thinking about the hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands of [00:31:00] students that could be impacted over time in that district because of systematic decisions that we’re making.

That’s huge. It’s a huge impact, and I love being a part of that. 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. No, and I think that also goes to show and say why you’re the perfect person to be doing what you’re doing because it’s true. The processes have are some of the greatest tools to impl- impact our students, and to have people in those roles who are passionate about both the process and of course the adults who are running that process, and how that can impact their lives as well.

Thank you for the work you’re doing. Sincerely, like it’s, this is a work that we’re doing across the country from so many different levels, and it happens and it comes to life because of a lot of talented and hungry and resourceful and courageous educators. Thank you. 

Carlene Thomas: I love it. I’m happy, and you used the right word, passionate.

I think if I was to do a search in all of my feedback from all the participants in my sessions over the [00:32:00] years, that’s the number one word probably that gets mentioned, is what I hope and what I long for people to see is my passion about what we’re doing, what we’re talking about, because it really is all about the students and families, and I hope that always comes out clearly in my work.

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. No, absolutely. Is there a moment, even like a story or a time where you had like a paradigm shift that’s maybe crafted a little bit of how you do your work or how, or your passion behind it? That you point to or think of, “Hey, this happened and it changed me after that.” 

Carlene Thomas: Wow. There really is, I would call it a season.

When I was a ESL director at a nationwide charter located in South Dallas at the time I was working there. And what’s interesting about that time period is, one, I was in a role that I was barely equipped for, to be frank, because I was still learning, right? So I had gone from working within a large system.

I was in Dallas ISD, [00:33:00] so it’s a very large system, right at the campus level, then going to this system where I had to be knowledgeable and I was learning, but I wasn’t fully the expert yet that I needed to be. So I was really reaching and leaning on that regional center t- for training. And I remember that as I went into that role, I honestly walked into that role with a lot of deficit thinking about students.

I wouldn’t have ever named it that way at the time. I don’t think I would’ve ever identified myself in that way. But now looking back, I can truly say that’s really what it was at the root. And during that time, through extensive training and learning, research diving, I began to shift my mindset, not only about the students, but about the best, most effective ways to support them.

For many years, to be honest with you, I was not a proponent of bilingual education. I wasn’t. And I think a lot of that came from, [00:34:00] one, outside influences that I’d had in my early years of training, and then two, seeing at the ground level some ineffective and not well-implemented bilingual program. And so I took those limited experiences and made broad statements and ideas and thoughts about them.

“This must not work because look what I’m seeing.” But then during that season as I was diving into research and diving into soaking in as much training and learning as I could, my mindset started to shift, and I had important leaders as well in that school system that facilitated powerful conversations for me to be able to really address and identify some of the deficit thinking that I had as well, and really turn and have some deep thinking and reflection on that.

And so I think during that season, I was really able to shift my mindset about students and truly understand [00:35:00] how bilingual programs, specifically dual language immersion programs, really truly are the most asset-based approaches that we can take to serving multilingual learners. So it was a come to Jesus season for me really, that whole time period, and I think it took a lot of- Learning, self-reflection, that was really guided by some powerful leaders I had around me as well 

Andrew Brandt: Carlene, I love how self-aware that is and how honest that is.

Just being, and recognizing your journey and how your perspective shapes how, like, how you are doing your work and, and the decisions you’re making. What advice would you have for a new ML teacher starting out? Maybe in general, and may- or maybe more specifically around just building their own perspective of the work that they’re getting into.

Carlene Thomas: So I think it’s really tied to that experience in that my advice would be to forgive yourself. I think a lot of times in education, we’re doing the best we can do with the knowledge we have at the time, [00:36:00] with the skills that we have at, at the time, with the capacity that we have at the time. And just as I, I’m sure every teacher has walked out of a lesson, for instance, and been like, “That was terrible.

Gotta do better next time.” So I think at a sim- a simple level, if you will, like at a lesson, we always have to be constantly adjusting our instructional practices, right? And then at a larger, systematic kind of level, we also have to really be thinking about what perspectives do I currently have that maybe need to be altered to better habitually change my instructional practices, right?

And how I build a welcoming culture in my classroom, et cetera, right? And a lot of that takes forgiving yourself for all the ways in which you maybe didn’t do it well before, and moving, learning from it and moving on and doing something different later. I had a really powerful … Quick story, Andrew, if I [00:37:00] can.

I had a really powerful time that had to, I had to really learn to forgive myself. I had a situation, I was working in a middle school, and I was a seventh grade language arts teacher. I had a student walk into my room who was not my student at the time, didn’t know the kiddo. Of course, mind you, I’m at the overhead projector.

You probably know what year that was. But I’m, it’s in between, this is the passing period, I’m quickly trying to erase my overhead projector and get into the hallway for my hallway duty. So I’m in a rush, my head’s down. This kid walks up and just, like, thrusts a paper in my hand. Doesn’t even say anything, just thrust this paper in my hand.

And my initial reaction was just like, “Ugh!” I put up my, “Ugh, what are you doing? Who is this kid? What is he doing?” He gets mad at me for that reaction, and he starts walking to the door, and he’s cursing me out left and sideways, and he’s [00:38:00] mad. And of course, I walk him down. I’m like, “You can’t talk to me that way.”

And I walk him down to the office to say, “Hey, this kid’s cursing me out.” I don’t even know, right? So I walk him down, this whole thing. Obviously did not feel good about this conversation, did not feel good because actually I found out later he was coming to… He was a brand new student coming to my class for the first time, and I felt terrible.

I was like, this is how I greeted him? This is what happened? I felt terrible, so the next day I was like, I’m gonna talk to him about it. The next day where it was like a field trip, and I missed him. Okay, tomorrow I’m gonna talk to this kid. We’re gonna get it sorted out, and we’re gonna start fresh. We come to school the next day, and the principal pulls aside myself and my other team of teachers and tells me that he had killed himself, that child.

He had hung himself in his room the night before. Wow. Wow. So I never had a chance to start fresh. I never had a chance to tell him, “Hey, I really [00:39:00] am sorry for the way that I first greeted you when you walked into my classroom, and I could have done better about understanding why you’re upset rather than just walking you down to the office.”

And I never got to have that conversation with him. Now, of course, as anyone who deals with someone who has completed suicide, there’s so many… Oh, there’s so much guilt in that, and for anyone involved. But of course, I’m– There was many factors, I’m sure, that led to that child’s decision in that moment. And but I, I felt very guilty about that situation for a long time, and I have really, at the deepest level, had to learn to forgive myself for that and know that I wasn’t solely responsible for that situation happening.

So that’s a very large reason that I had to learn to forgive myself, but I think it’s in even small things, learning to forgive ourselves. Teachers can many times feel like they have a [00:40:00] wagging finger in their face with, “You’ve gotta do this. You’ve gotta do that. You’ve gotta have this. You gotta have that,” all these expectations, and it can feel like we’re just constantly failing.

But the reality is people are doing the best they can do with the resources they have, the time they have, the capacity they have, the skills they have, the knowledge they have. But when we know better, we have to do better. And so when my mindset started to shift, when I started to learn, then it was my responsibility to actually do better with my new mindset and with the new skills that I had.

Andrew Brandt: Wow. Carly, that’s– There are several things there I’m excited to talk about. At first, just to sit with that is so hard, and that is such a heavy weight to carry. Obviously, anybody Joining suicide is hard. And then of course, that feeling of could I have done something different? That’s obviously there, that was the student’s decision to make, and there’s a lot of factors involved, and it’s unfortunate.

And it is what it is. That’s… I’m sorry that you had to carry that too, but I, I appreciate you also calling out that [00:41:00] created an, an opportunity for you to dig down very deep and come to terms with the fact that we do interact and we do impact each other, and that is gonna happen in a multitude of ways.

And in some, fortunately, it’s by far the exception, some situations it will result in something like this. Ultimately, we are all responsible for ourselves, and part of that is learning to be able to forgive our previous selves and say, “Hey, you know what? Before I did some things, and now as I think about it, I’ll do different.”

And that’s… Man, I’m just still sitting with that story. 

Carlene Thomas: I’m sorry. I know that it’s a very intense situation, and it’s… I think what I really think about every single day is that this is not just about instruction, right? We’re teaching human beings that are holistic people, right? That will have, hopefully, full lives.

And we have this [00:42:00] moment in time to impact them, right? And to be a part of their life. And thankfully, you know, I’ve been able to have now students coming back that I, I taught 20 years ago that are like, “You did this one thing and it meant so much to me,” or whatever. And those moments are amazing. We don’t always get to see that though, right?

We don’t always get to see the long-term impact that we had from a positive moment with students, but those do happen. And I think it really just, it comes down to teachers being able to, again, forgive themselves for those things. And it’s the approach I also take as I teach teachers and school leaders, is to lead with my mistakes.

Many times we try to show them as, and act as if our instructional practices were perfect, that we made the perfect learning environment for students. But the reality is, if we’re all being honest, we’ve all failed. We’ve all done the wrong thing, and I like to [00:43:00] lead with that because I want them to understand it’s okay if you made the mistake, but we have to learn from it and we’re gonna change moving forward.

But I think it’s important that we’re vulnerable as leaders in ensuring that people don’t just think that there’s this huge bar of perfection to meet, and that if we ever miss that bar, we’re a failure. 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. And, and you mentioned that, like our students are on a learning journey that’s more than just the knowledge that goes in their brain, and that we have this moment in time to impact them.

The reality is that we are also on a learning journey. We’re just in different positions- in a learning journey. And I think what really what you’re saying is you’re looking back to yourself from a previous point in your life and saying, “Hey, you know what? In that point I had this perspective, and now I feel like I’ve learned and grown and I’m here.”

And the composure to be able to forgive yourself and ref- r- recognize that, “Hey, before I did things and made decisions that now I would do differently,” is an important part of that reflection and learning [00:44:00] process. 

Carlene Thomas: And it’s owning our impact. That’s also another piece that I’ve really learned, is the difference between intention and impact.

Yeah. And recognizing that you may have all the best intentions, but sometimes we impact s- people, whether our students or other peers. We can im- make an impact that is damaging or hurting to others regardless of our intentions. And we have to own that and be able to then make a change. Yeah. And really own when our impact is not what we had intended.

Andrew Brandt: Absolutely. No, you’ve had the greatest intentions all along the way, and as you’ve gone, you’ve become more aware of the impact that some of your decisions have made, and it’s helped you grow and adjust some of those decisions to have a more positive impact. Yeah. 

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. 

Andrew Brandt: I love how you call that out.

There’s a quote, I don’t remember the exact quote, but I’ll paraphrase the best I can, but something that’s helped me along the way, and it’s if you don’t look at a previous version of yourself and are [00:45:00] embarrassed to a certain degree, then you’re not learning. Because so often I’ll look back at things I’ve done before and I’ll just be like, “Oh, man.”

Yep. I’m embarrassed by previous me. But I think that’s healthy, and not only is it healthy, but I think it’s important because if you’re not embarrassed by previous versions of you, you’re probably not really self-reflecting and being honest enough and not growing along the way. 

Carlene Thomas: I love that. I’m gonna use that.

I’m gonna have to look it up and 

Andrew Brandt: Yeah, I gotta, I gotta pull up the, the actual quote. I’ll send it over, but it’s … Yeah, ’cause I, I have many moments where I look back and I’m like, “Oh, okay. You know what? Time to evolve and learn to do things a little better.” I think that’s very healthy. I love this bit of conversation we’ve been having.

It, it evolved from that question around what advice you’d have for a new teacher, and really being to forgive yourself. And I think that’s something that all of us can learn to do along all of our journeys, and is really the foundation of growing. I’m curious, as you keep doing this work, and you’re involved in so many angles, working in kind of the front lines with districts, then working [00:46:00] at some of the national level with some of the conferences, what are the trends you see?

What are the things that you see, and this is where I’d love to see- the way we serve students evolve 

Carlene Thomas: So honestly, one of the biggest concerns that I have as I’m in hundreds of classrooms each school year, and one of the biggest concerns I have is truly understanding what an assets-based mindset means instructionally for our students.

And I think that there’s a lot of misconceptions about what that looks like. So for instance, when teacher- we should be incorporating students’ primary languages in the classroom, right? So in an ESL setting, we’re not instructing in English, or we’re not instructing in their primary language. We are instructing in English, for instance, in an ESL space.

But it doesn’t mean that their primary languages don’t have a place in our classrooms. And but unfortunately, sometimes the way that people then integrate that is [00:47:00] straight translating, right? Now this can come across in concurrent translation, where if the, if the educator themselves is fluent in the primary language of the student, then they will say everything in English and then say it all in the other language and back and forth.

That’s not bilingual instruction. And so that can happen in both ESL spaces and in bilingual program spaces, which is also, again, not appropriate. Because there’s the, that if I just, if I translate or I give them a translated document, that’s gonna solve it, but it doesn’t actually lead to second language acquisition, right?

For instance, I always like to say it this way, translation is not translanguaging. And translation or concurrent translation is not bilingual instruction. And there’s a big difference in that. We want students to translanguage, to pull from their full [00:48:00] linguistic repertoire in honor, in able, to be able to interact with the content instruction, right?

So we want them to be able to use all of that as a resource, to be able to move across languages and pull from that knowledge in order to participate in the receptive and expressive skills. But by just translating, we’re not gonna get to that translanguaging, right? So translation is not an effective practice, but it’s what I see happening quite a bit, is just translating, whether it’s orally, whether it’s just translated materials.

And again, we’re doing these improperly in both ESL and bilingual spaces. And so understanding, for instance, in a bilingual program space, that we need to follow the language allocation plan, right? And the teacher to actually stay in the language of instruction and allow for students to translanguage and scaffold [00:49:00] to the language of instruction And of course, we’ll also facilitate targeted cross-linguistic connections where we also facilitate bridge practices where they can actually do specific times of that co- the contrast of analysis.

They can do those targeted cross-linguistic connections. We facilitate them being able to do that, but that’s all very structured and intentional, whereas just translating is not intentional, and it’s not structured in a way that actually leads to that second language acquisition. So I think it’s one of the biggest misnomers that happens in the classroom is not really understanding that, yes, we wanna incorporate students’ primary languages, but in a proper way.

Andrew Brandt: I love that, and what I really hear the underlying theme there is really assets based, taking their primary language and building off of it, helping them build from what they have, and build [00:50:00] English into that, um, and add it on top, and really the asset they bring in having another language. 

Carlene Thomas: So it’s just what you just said there, Andrew, and that’s we’re adding it.

Right? Now, according to what you just said, the reality is a dual language immersion program is the only program that by design is additive, right? Because we are truly supporting bilingualism and biliteracy through the duration of the program. Transitional bilingual programs, not additive by design.

Bilingualism is maybe not a byproduct of a transitional bilingual program. English proficiency is the goal. Same with an English as a second language program or an EN- ENL, English as a new language program, as some states call it. Right? Those by design are not additive programs. However, we don’t have to say, “Too bad for you,” kid in transitional bilingual or kid in ESL.

“No additive approach for you.” No. We can still implement an additive approach where we [00:51:00] do incorporate their primary language in the instructional setting where we allow for them to trans language. We allow for them to use resources in their primary language, but we don’t just stop there. We support them in scaffolding to the language of instruction, and that’s the key piece is allowing them, for instance, to answer in their primary language.

That’s only step one, but sometimes we stop there. But now, in order to provide that equitable participation, we’re gonna use that powerful response in their primary language, that knowledge, and we’re gonna help to scaffold them to the language of instruction so they can equitably participate. So that’s what the part that’s just missing, is being able to not only incorporate their primary language, but do so in a way that actually leads to multilingual learning.

Andrew Brandt: No, I love that, and it, it seems this is a podcast we could have in and of itself right here. Even if we only have time to kinda do [00:52:00] it high level right now- But it really feels it goes back to maybe a little bit of your foundation where you’re saying that when you start out, you f- you can feel that maybe there’s a little more of a deficit mindset starting out that may have felt more like, “Hey, we gotta replace your language with English.

We gotta figure out how we can just make the bridge, get you from maybe Spanish or whatever the language was to English so that you can know English.” But the inherent in that, as, as noble as it may be the goal to help them learn English, there can be an inherent deficit in, “Okay, let’s just, let’s just get you to English.”

And there’s so much value both in their learning journey and in having that second language, their primary language strong that we miss sometimes. 

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. And I don’t think I could have ever named that I had a deficit mindset, but looking back now, I understand that’s what was at the root. I thought I had good intentions.

I thought that I was doing right by students, but not realizing that I really was [00:53:00] holding onto deficit thinking without even knowing or understanding that. And so I’m thankful that I’ve learned along the way and shifted my thinking because now I can understand the benefits of bilingualism, the benefits of honoring their primary language, their home language, or the even their heritage language, even if they themselves are not completely fluent in that language of their home culture, how it’s also still beneficial and important that they have that connection for their cultural identity.

Andrew Brandt: Yeah. No, and I would argue that you did have good intentions. I think what you’re saying is that now is with more experience, you look back at and say, “Hey, you know what? The impact was not as great as what you would like to have now in, in creating a s- an instructional process and in creating a, a program that better honors their native language and equips them to use both their native language as they’re learning English as well.”

And what I’m hearing you say as well, which is great, is that this doesn’t mean that, [00:54:00] say you’re a ML teacher in a, a school that doesn’t have a dual immersion program. Maybe they’ve got a two-way program, maybe they have no program, is that you don’t need to have a dual immersion program, but that in, in your instructional cl- practices in your classroom, you can do things to honor their native language and help them translanguage, um, in just how you support those students day to day.

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. A practical example of that is in an ESL space, for instance, I can pull from the power of bilingual pairs as we might have in like a two-way dual language program with, let’s say it’s one native English-speaking peer, one native Spanish-speaking peer, right? In a Spanish dual language, two-way dual language program.

And the beauty of that pair is that when they partner together, they’re going to naturally use comprehensible input with one another, right? They’re going to point and gesture and use simplified language and draw pictures. They’re going to figure it out, and they’re gonna trans language with one another, [00:55:00] and they’re gonna do all of that.

I can take that same mindset, I can take that same practice, and apply it in my ESL setting with my pairing of students. So let’s say then in my ESL setting, I have a newcomer, let’s say it’s a Spanish-speaking newcomer, who comes into the classroom who’s at early stages of English proficiency. Instead of just pairing them with another Spanish-speaking student who will just sit and translate for them, I either pair them with an English-speaking peer who’s gonna also do some of those things, or maybe even in a, like a triad where they have access to someone, when available, who speaks their primary language.

But I also train that student, their pa- their peer, to how to work with them. I let them know, “Your role is not to translate everything Ms. Thomas says. Your role is to ask them what they already know, help them to make a connection. Ask them where they maybe need help. What do they understand? What do they not [00:56:00] understand?”

I’m teaching them how to be a good facilitator of learning. So the way in which I organize, for instance, pairing of students in my ESL program, I can use that same mindset and that same additive approach as we would do in, for instance, a two-way dual language program, and I can use that in my ESL program so that students understand that straight translation’s not gonna get us to second language acquisition, let alone bilingualism, right?

But if we work together to talk out our ideas in our primary language together, if available, then we can s- help each other to scaffold to the language of instruction together. So we can apply that same thinking. 

Andrew Brandt: And of course, the learning that’s happening for that English-speaking student as you’re teaching them how to

It’s just, I, it’s beautiful to watch how that structure then equips both students to be very active learners [00:57:00] in so many ways in, beyond just the instruction that’s happening. 

Carlene Thomas: Yes. And facilitating times for the student who are as- who is at early stages of English proficiency, ensuring that there’s times that they also can share about things that they know, that they’re good at, that is about themselves or their home culture or community, something to where they’re not always the one who’s learning from the other, and that the tables can shift a little bit where they have opportunities to really demonstrate their strengths that may not always come out when we’re just focused on English language learning.

Andrew Brandt: I just, I love feeling your energy and excitement around really what I- I’m seeing is a return to this theme of training adults on processes that can serve students, and not just the ones that you would teach in a classroom, but the ones that you can impact by you stepping back from the classroom- And helping train the adults, the districts, the systems and processes [00:58:00] to do this work really well.

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. 

Andrew Brandt: That’s phenomenal. This has been such a fun conversation, and actually speaking of the theme of training adults, you keep plenty busy, and yet you still have time for– You got another company you’re doing that also has to do with training adults. Tell us a little bit about that. 

Carlene Thomas: Yes. About a year and a half ago, I started an endeavor with a longtime friend and colleague in the multilingual education space.

We went together on purchasing the rights to a parenting skills curriculum and training program. And so it had been a longstanding program for over 40 years that was in existence. We took that and was able to gain the rights to all of that. We re- have rebranded. Our company is called Purposeful Parent Education, and we have taken that ex- that old curriculum and completely revamped it, freshened it up.

It was very foundationally strong with parenting skills. However, it really needed a [00:59:00] refresh to bring it up to 2026 with digital resources and all of that. And so our basic model is that we train school districts and even nonprofits that serve families. We train them on our parenting skills curriculum that’s all in English and Spanish right now, and then they become certified in that curriculum to turn it around to their families.

We also do provide some direct services as well that are, you know, our districts or nonprofits can use us to do direct services to their families as well. And so we’re excited about it because we really feel like it is just a resource when districts or nonprofits are trying to serve families but don’t necessarily have the time to create something, and we provide that turnkey, very strong foundational curriculum that they can use with their families.

Andrew Brandt: No, that is phenomenal, and I love to watch your passion in action. First going into the realm of obviously various parts of the [01:00:00] educational process to help improve outcomes for students. But then, of course, now jumping to parents, which is the other key a- adult in, in, in this ecosystem that serves our students is their parents, and how crucial they are in the learning journey.

And I love that you’ve taken that on, and of course, I have to wonder, and I’m guessing this helps that partnership. In addition to teaching parenting, equipping them with the skills they need with ready lessons, that connection between the parent and the district is such a key indicator of student success.

Naturally, with the d- with sounds like districts then providing that to s- to parents, it creates a stronger connection there, and I’m guessing there’s probably some components of your program that- Are geared towards making sure that parents feel very involved and connected with the journey of their students.

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. This really is that bringing that holistic view of the educational system, right? So on one hand, I’m able to train educators on creating strong systems, of course, [01:01:00] specifically for multilingual learners. But then in my parent program, then we’re able to really work on ensuring that the families feel empowered with the skills to support their child at home, to create healthy living environments at home in their family structures, and to be able to know their rights in the education system, to be able to know how to interact with the school, to communicate well with the school, and to really have that partnership.

Andrew Brandt: We could keep going all day. This has been such a fun conversation. Unfortunately, we’re getting to the end of our time. I do have a couple questions that I’d love to ask, a series we like to do. First off is, are there any books, authors, thought leaders that w- have really caught your attention lately that you’re following?

Carlene Thomas: There’s so many good things out there, but I will just say a strong staple that I always go with is Biliteracy From the Start by Kathy Escamilla. I will tell you, when districts are wanting to move towards dual [01:02:00] language program implementation and don’t know what to do, that is a book that I point them to every single time.

So consistently, um, I think it’s a resource that really helps to understand what biliteracy looks like, and that can be implemented even before you really fully implement a dual language program, and maybe, for instance, you’re implementing a transitional bilingual program and you want to start really incorporating more biliteracy practices.

I think it’s a strong foundation to learn the skills needed to support biliteracy. 

Andrew Brandt: No, that’s great. The next question, and we’ve covered a lot of topics, so you can decide which direction you want to go. But as we’ve talked about a variety of things, and, uh, for a listener, what’s something they could go and do next week?

And maybe think first about a teacher. What’s something a teacher could go and do next week to apply some of what we talked about today? 

Carlene Thomas: I would always say the simplest thing to really incorporating an asset-based approach in your classroom is the simple phrase, “Ask [01:03:00] first.” Ask first. So in whatever you’re about to do in the classroom, think to yourself, “Have I asked students first what they already know?

Have I asked students first how to make a connection to what we’re learning to their lives, to their families?” Some sort of relevancy. So I think that’s the simplest way to do right now. I don’t have to stay up until 3:00 AM with bloodshot eyes coming up with that, but just ask first. So everything you do in the classroom, just ask first.

Do, you know, have I made some sort of connection to their prior knowledge or connection to something that’s relevant to them? 

Andrew Brandt: I love that. Okay, the final question is very similar, but for our district leaders, whether they’re an ML coordinator or director, what advice would you have of something they can go and do next week to apply?

Carlene Thomas: I would say lead from the bottom. Lead from the bottom, and what I really mean by that is to really flip that script of what traditional systems look like with [01:04:00] district leaders at the top, then campus leaders, then teachers at the bottom, and then students that they serve. But really flipping that around, putting students and families at the top with our important teachers right there with them, and paraprofessionals that are on the front line, and then our campus leaders and our district leaders who are really there as the bottom support.

So really considering then how can I, as that foundational support, lift up the next rung? So if I’m a district leader, how can I really directly impact those campus leaders? What can I do to really help make their lives easier, to help them better understand what they need to know to support s- students, specifically multilingual learners?

And then in turn, how can those campus leaders help to support the teachers and make their life easier, simpler, and increase their capacity to ultimately supporting our students and families? So I think it’s taking those small steps to really lead from the bottom and reverse that top-down approach thinking.

Andrew Brandt: I [01:05:00] love that. I love that, Carly, and this has been such a fun discussion. Thank you so much for taking time to join us. 

Carlene Thomas: Absolutely. Thank you 

for inviting me.