Mary Castanuela: Balancing Heritage and Education

Mary Castanuela: [00:00:00] The first rule of second language acquisition is you always honor, respect, and value that primary language because that’s the foundation of language. Once you get that foundation of language, that’s when from there you start transferring those skills into the multiple languages via cognates, via some of the similarities in grammar and so forth.

And so we want them to have that strong foundation in their primary language. But on top of that If the parent is not well versed in the English language, then their communication is going to be super limited. And what a missed opportunity for that family to grow together. Because if they’re only using the English language and it’s so limited, then it’s going to be yes and no all the time.

It cannot be that full discourse that you want them to use, where then that is applied into our Bloom’s taxonomy, [00:01:00] right? The synthesize, the analyze, the create, that’s not going to happen because the language is so limited. 

Justin Hewett: Hey everybody. Welcome to the ML chat podcast. We’re so glad you’re here. I’m your host, Justin Hewett here with my cohost, 

Mandi Morris: Mandi Morris.

Justin Hewett: And we had the best conversation with Mary Castanuela out of Region 15 down in Texas. She just is so delightful and has so many great insights to share with us. What was your biggest takeaway from today, Mandi? 

Mandi Morris: That Mary is in her 30th year of teaching and has so much excitement. And enthusiasm and hope about the work that she’s doing.

It’s absolutely contagious. 

Justin Hewett: It really permeates the whole conversation. Doesn’t it? She really just has so much optimism. I think for the work we do, you can tell that she loves it. She is using her unique abilities. To really work hard to bless 48 [00:02:00] district students in 48 districts is what she works with.

I think you’re going to get a lot of really valuable takeaways and insights today. There’s a part where I put her on the spot cause, and I think you’re going to enjoy the conversation that came out of that. You’re going to love this conversation today. with Mary Castanuela. Mary Castanuela is first generation Mexican American and has 30 years of experience in the education sector with a deep passion for supporting academic excellence and equity for diverse learners.

As the Regional Testing Coordinator at Education Service Center Region 15, she oversees state and federal assessments for 48 school districts in Texas. Mary provides professional development and technical assistance to testing coordinators, ensuring compliance with testing policies while promoting effective and ethical practices.

In addition to her role at the ESC, Mary serves as an education specialist, focusing on bilingual and ESL programs, and as a professional [00:03:00] development consultant, working to deliver Innovative solutions for schools all across the nation. She holds a master’s degree in education from Lamar university, and we are thrilled to have her here as a guest on the ML chat podcast.

Mary welcome. It’s great to have you here today. 

Mary Castanuela: Thank you so much for the invite and being part of this project. I’m super excited to be here with y’all. 

Justin Hewett: We have been looking forward to this. We’ve had some back and forth scheduling. We finally get to have this conversation. We’ve all been looking forward to this.

I think we’re going to have a lot of fun today. I want to first go to The very first line of your bio that I just read in your first generation Mexican American. You have some pretty special heritage. It’d be fun to learn a little bit more about you through your family, if you don’t mind telling us a little bit about their journey.

Yeah, 

Mary Castanuela: absolutely. I always love to share a little bit about my heritage and talk a little bit about my family, because I’m super grateful that my parents took that risk to move from Mexico [00:04:00] into Texas to give us a better life. Because honestly, anytime you ask a family that has migrated into the United States, why did you come?

 They’re saying because they want a better life and I want a better life for my children. And that’s how my parents were, they wanted to have a better life. But to have those opportunities to provide that better life for ourselves.

It wasn’t just, let’s come and see what we get. It’s you come and get educated and do your best and provide that better life for yourself. . I am very proud to be a first generation Mexican American in that sense of representing that group of family out there that is working hard to provide a better life for myself, but also open new doors for my own son and always recognizing and honoring that it all started with my mom and my dad.

And a story that I love to share With everybody is the day that my mom got her papers to move to Texas, because my daddy actually came to Texas [00:05:00] and became a ranch foreman in Sterling city, . And I’m super honored to say that he was the first Hispanic to be a ranch foreman in that County and to be the first Mexican allowed to eat at the city cafe in Sterling city, Texas.

So to me, How much more proud can I be of my dad in breaking those barriers? He came, he worked hard, the owner of the ranch provided a small loan to him to get his paperwork taken care of. He got the paperwork done for my mom and my two oldest brothers that still lived in, uh, Piedras Negras Coahuila, and when he showed up in Piedras to give my mom the paperwork, she started to cry.

And he asked her, why are you crying? You should be so happy. And she said, I am happy. I am crying with tears of joy and relief because now I know that my children are not going to suffer like we did. We now have opened a new door for [00:06:00] them. When I’m running into barriers and I have to keep myself in check and safe. Look at what your mom did. Look what she did. She left her entire family to come to Texas, did not know the language, did not even know how to drive a vehicle, came to Sterling city, Texas, look at what she achieved.

. And so I’m super proud to be first generation Mexican American, but also embracing the experiences that I’ve had. Being in that position with branching out and learning new things about myself and using that to branch out more. And this is where I refer to myself as also being generation 1. 5, . Because I have that experience of still going back to Mexico to Músquiz and Monclova. Those are the two areas where 98 percent of my family still lives there and they many times live and still in poverty. But I remember living [00:07:00] there June and July and helping even my cousin sell spices at my welly tolls carrucha, which was an open air market and we would sell spices for my grandpa. And so I have that experience of doing that and sleeping on top of the roof of the house because there’s no central air and heat. So it was cooler up there and the mosquitoes couldn’t get you as much. But then also have the experience of being here in Texas and going to a Dallas football game to a Texas Rangers game.

The experience of eating at the top of the hemisphere in San Antonio and just being in all of having dinner up there while it’s slowly rotating. And then the experience of travel, traveling to Spain for two weeks and embracing that side of my culture. And so it all meshes together. And that’s what we want for our students.

We want cultures to come together, still honoring our roots, but then learning from experiences and the exposure and just [00:08:00] embracing it all together to branch off more. However, also I have to be very realistic as. Being that person, but also as an educator, because I would have students in that same position, we have to always remember, we’re always embracing and respecting our heritage, our roots, right?

Always. We value them. However, also what experiences we have, we use them to move forward to adapt to what is best for us and to just keep moving forward because life is full of changes. And so still holding on to those roots, but pulling them along with the new experiences. And so unfortunately, that’s when possibly family or friends can try to pull you back because all those new experiences.

It’s very unknown to them. And so then they have that, Oh, I don’t know anything about that. I don’t want to go that route. But now I see my daughter going that route. I’m not very [00:09:00] supportive of that because I don’t know it. I don’t understand it. And so this is where communication is essential and education is essential in learning all of that and making sure that we can pull it all together and embrace it and integrate it because guess what?

That’s what’s going to be the child’s identity. That became my identity. So the best way I can give you an example is growing up, love Spanish music. I love Norteño, I love cumbia, I had my favorite grooves. We would go to the dances. That was my life growing up. But then middle school, high school, guess what I love to listen to in eighties music.

Best music ever. So here I have Spanish music, now a layer of 80s music. Then I went to college and guess what came into my realm? Country music, so that’s another layer of music. And so that is what I’m talking about becoming generation 1. 5, because I’m still love listening to my music from back then, but [00:10:00] now guess what? My playlist has Norteño, Cumbia, has those bookies, it has those Tigres del Norte, but then it also has ACDC, Poison, Madonna. Yeah. Chicago. Now I’m really showing you how old I am, but on that, then I have all of my country, Garth Brooks, George Strait, and now the new ones, Lainey Wilson, Morgan Wallen, last night I just added Carol G.

So now I’m going back into Spanish roots. That’s generation 1. 5 is holding onto your roots, but also adding layers of all of the experiences and the exposures that you have living here in the United States. What a wonderful opportunity. 

Justin Hewett: Yeah. No, I love that. I think that’s fantastic, and I think that at the end of the day, that’s what we want for all of our students who are migrating or immigrating into our country.

And I love the fact that you recognize you’re not a true Texan until you’ve been to a Dallas Cowboys game, right? Or . Hey I, what are your parents’ names, [00:11:00] if you don’t mind? 

Mary Castanuela: My, oh, my daddy’s name is Jose Guadalupe. And my mama’s name was Maria Teresa Treviño. I was named after my mama, Maria Teresa.

That’s my full name, Maria Teresa. Oh, and there’s a whole other story about how my name was changed. 

Justin Hewett: I’m sure we’ll have to get to that at some point. I just want to honor that you said that you talked about how your mom, she came not knowing how to drive, but she had a lot of drive. And they broke through a lot of boundaries and I just, I’m it’s amazing the journey that our immigrants take to come here to the United States and the risk that they take.

We talked a little bit about this before we started recording, but I think to me, that’s one of the most inspiring things about the journey that. Many of the students we’re serving that they are on and their families are on. And I wanted to just share here with our listeners. I thought this was really interesting.

Just some of my research recently, I came across the fact that our immigrants start companies at a rate, six times higher [00:12:00] than the average. American born citizens, which I thought that was really crazy. So they are coming and not necessarily always taking jobs per se. A lot of times they’re creating a lot of opportunity and a lot of jobs.

50, let’s see, 45 percent of the companies in the fortune 500 were started by immigrants. And so it is really interesting to me and it is just really inspiring as an entrepreneur who’s building a company and realizes this is hard. Like it is hard to build a company and get it. We now, we have, I think we have 53 team members now at flashlight learning and we’re on a journey to, hopefully shine a light on our multilingual learners all over the nation.

And we’re serving almost 200, 000 students now. And. And over 400 school districts, it’s not like it’s easy. It gets harder and harder as we go. And I just have a lot of respect for the challenges that are immigrants, that are refugees, that they go through, the risks that they take to improve their lives, to make it better.

And [00:13:00] a lot of times it’s not even for them, it’s for their kids. And I think you’re a product of that, Mary. And we’re really excited to dive in even more to this. So it’s neat to take a minute and honor your parents and the journey that they’ve been on. And we appreciate you sharing that with us. Mandi, I know you have a couple of questions that you want to jump into.

Maybe before we do that, I just want to know, Mary, what drew you to education and that journey that you had growing up, the generation 1. 5, and you have all these different experiences. What was it in those early days when you were making decisions on what you wanted to be when you grow up or what career you’re going to pursue?

How did you make your way into education? 

Mary Castanuela: And it’s very interesting cause I will always give credit to my teachers back in starling city because back then I started kindergarten in 1979 and back then things were barely happening to where. Bilingual and ESL programs were going to be federally mandated and that how are we supposed to serve our students that are coming in with no English?

And so I was at that cusp of all of [00:14:00] that barely starting truly to happen, especially into the rural school districts. And so there really wasn’t necessarily a committee or a team of teachers that were coming together and looking at my data and looking at me. In the classroom thinking to say, what can we do?

What’s best for Mary? And so I credit my teachers for helping me choose this journey to become an educator and understanding that some things that happened to me. I don’t want that to happen to another student. And honestly, I think that’s how I ended up being in this pathway as an educator. As an educator was that 

Mandi Morris: Mary, you talked about your identity a lot and how really that identity is fluid between having a grounding here in Texas and then having a grounding in Mexico.

And I wonder over the years, how has that fluidity and identity informed [00:15:00] your positions in leadership or in the classroom, working with students? And how do you see that as an asset and then communicate that asset with people that you work with? 

Mary Castanuela: Oh my goodness. That’s a heavy question because there are times I have to tread very lightly to not let my past experience as first generation Mexican American influence my guidance because I also have to keep in check about state compliance.

And what do we need to do for state law, but always bringing it back to what is best for the student at the end of the day. And so I feel the way that I’ve been able to impact school districts to truly understand an EB’s journey for their education is reminding them the first thing that we need to do is help those students feel welcome.

and valued in the classroom, because I personally have [00:16:00] a very rough story that I share about my first day in kindergarten, where I got yelled at. And I always share that was the first time ever in my life that I felt stupid. And my whole thing was inside of me, I was yelling, I’m not stupid. I just don’t know what you’re saying to me.

And I don’t know what to say back to you in English because I don’t know any English. And so usually that is the very first thing that I try to tackle when I’m working with school districts is that effective component and remembering how it is being that child that first day of school and not knowing anybody, not knowing English.

And so that’s where it always starts off. But then I then put myself back as the ESL teacher because it came full circle when I became the ESL teacher and helping the students and understanding that this is what my [00:17:00] expectations are from the state. What do I have to do? So still keeping that effective component, remembering being that, that kindergarten kiddo, not knowing any English, but then also relying on my experience as that ESL teacher of what are the expectations and I got to keep those expectations high, but what am I going to do?

Because I’m the adult, I set the tone of my classroom. I set the instruction. It’s my responsibility. To help that child meet those high expectations and not lower them and do the I bought a seatle syndrome because we can get caught in that net of I bought a seatle. They don’t know English. They don’t need to do this.

That then becomes a disservice to the child instead of doing what we need to do as an educator. And so it’s very fluid what you just said. That was just in a whole moment for me when you use that word because I thought, you know, Oh, my gosh, that [00:18:00] is what happens when I’m working with school districts. Is I start off as being the EB student, but then also bringing in being that ESL teacher because you have to make that connection.

Justin Hewett: Mary, that was fantastic. I love that and it’s super insightful. I was just going to ask you if you don’t mind. I know that EB is a term we use a lot in Texas, but it’s not necessarily used around the country as often. Do you mind breaking that down and why Texas uses EB? 

Mary Castanuela: Okay, so this is a great thing about the state of Texas.

We tend to march to the beat of our own drum, but drum is usually we’re the leading force behind education, especially with our students that do not know English. So I will embrace that and own it because we do that, but we are the leader in education. Many states look upon us about what we’re doing with our students that do not speak English to help them be successful academically and linguistically [00:19:00] and in all aspects.

And so history is when I started teaching back in 1996, What we refer to our students were LEP, limited English proficient. So that was what we would say our students were. They were LEP. We even would joke around and say, Oh, they’re LEPitos or LEPitas, Spanish adding in that ending to make them, that’s a person, right?

However, even back then as a very young teacher, cause I started teaching when I was 21, you could tell very quickly that as soon as we use that term, limited English proficient, we then. focused on one word and that word was limited. And I honestly could even see in my conversations with colleagues, when I would say limited English proficient, they would say, Oh, they’re limited.

And they would point to their head and I’m like, Oh, they’re not limited. Cognitively they’re limited in the English language. There’s a huge difference. And because there [00:20:00] was at that time, lots of referrals to special ed because of that. Type of insinuation. We then had to move to the term English language learner.

So that’s where we had ELL, which many States still use that term, which is absolutely fine. English language learner. And so we use that for many years and then we changed it to English learner ELL. And so we use that for up till, I think it’s now been five years ago that at legislation, actually, when our legislators met together.

because they meet every two years. At that legislation, legislative session, there was a student that testified about the negative impact that those terms had within the school districts in Texas and what she experienced being that student. And so from there we then adopted, so this was adopted by legislature, so it’s in our [00:21:00] state law, is that we now use the term emergent bilingual.

Because our thing or our goal is not for the student to lose their primary language. We want to add. So at that point, once they go through a bilingual program or an ESL program, we want them to be bilingual, at least. Hopefully trilingual and so forth. But that’s where we now use the term eb. And of course that’s only in the state of Texas because it is in our and is it’s in our legislature, but all the other states I believe we still use ELL and in some cases LI 

Justin Hewett: love that.

I love that you went through all of that. That is fantastic, Pete. That is gonna be really helpful for a lot of people. And, but you know what the term emergent bilingual, we are starting to hear it in other places across the country as well. 

Mary Castanuela: So can I give y’all a little tidbit of what I foresee happening?

That term is more than likely going to change again because now the [00:22:00] pushback is Why are we just limiting them to be bilingual and not have more languages than two? I feel that a change is going to happen, not anytime soon. It’s probably going to happen, I’m going to say, I give it about another five years and then it will happen.

Justin Hewett: Is your guess emerging multilingual or is it to go with the multilingual learner? I 

Mary Castanuela: think it’s just going to be multilingual. ML, multilingual learner. I think that’s where we’re going because I’m starting to see that term pop up in a lot of research where it’s now multilingual learners. And so I feel that’s where we’re going to end up heading to is ML, multilingual learner.

Mandi Morris: Mary, I had an experience years ago when I was working in a middle school and I was supporting English learners in core classes. And I had a teacher who the student wasn’t meeting proficiency in content academics at grade level. The student was new to English. [00:23:00] And after parent conferences, the teacher was very frustrated.

She was talking with me and she said, I just told the parents, you need to stop speaking Spanish at home. Because that child is just not going to be able to progress in English and you have that moment. Okay. Who’s the family? I have to make a phone call. I have to write this misunderstanding, this misguidance, but you spoke to something in your experience I think is really worth going back and highlighting.

You were born in the U. S. in Texas. But you went to kindergarten speaking Spanish and I’ve had a lot of students over the years who have, their families have done the same. And I think this is so incredible and is absolutely what we should be explicitly supporting and celebrating and asking our families to do though.

It is often a tough decision for families. I’ve had friends that have exclusively spoken Spanish at home. And then when their child was, uh, labeled as EL in kindergarten had that freak out moment of, Oh my gosh, what did we [00:24:00] do wrong? And then try to backtrack. I would love to hear you talk some from your personal experience, but then also as an educator, how do you support families in that decision?

Mary Castanuela: Oh my goodness. That is a conversation that I’ve had with multiple educators, not only classroom teachers, but also. Administrators where they made that type of suggestion to the parents. Stop talking the primary language at home. You need to just use English. And it’s don’t do that because again, we are to be honoring and valuing that primary language.

That is automatically the first rule. Of second language acquisition is you always honor, respect and value that primary language because that’s the foundation of language. Once you get that foundation of language, that’s when from there you start transferring those skills into the multiple languages via cognates via some of the similarities and grammar and so forth.

And [00:25:00] so we want them to have that. strong foundation in their primary language. But on top of that, if the parent is not well versed in the English language, then their communication is going to be super limited. And what a missed opportunity for that family to grow together. Because if they’re only using the English language and it’s so limited, then it’s going to be yes and no questions.

It cannot be that full discourse that you want them to use, where then that is applied into our Bloom’s taxonomy, right? The synthesize, the analyze, the create, that’s not going to happen because the language is so limited. So how about We develop those higher learn learning skills. I used to call ’em the hots, the higher order thinking skill.

We want the hots higher order thinking skills. We want them in the primary language first because once you’ve developed that, that easily [00:26:00] transfers into any language because it’s not something new you have to learn. It’s an automatic. Once you’ve learned, it’s once you’ve learned to read, you. know how to read.

It’s jus to figure out in a differ don’t have to start. You and go to the right. It g it. You’ve got that in th that transfers into that by having that strong fou is 100 percent conducive to that second language acquisition to happen and to happen at a faster pace. And more importantly, in a smoother transition for your child.

And, but that is a big misconception out there. And the other misconception that I think you were driving at is even though this child is born in the United States, does not mean that their first language is in English. Again, my first language is El Espanol. And people [00:27:00] ask me, How did you start school? No, not knowing any English.

The only terms that I knew was yes, ma’am and no, ma’am. So that lets you know the level of respect that was expected in any language, period. And the explanation is, I was raised out on a ranch. I lived on a ranch for 18 years. Guess what, that ranch was about 13 miles away. Oh no, I take that back, 18 miles away from Sterling City.

And the only people that I was around growing up were my brothers and my parents. And guess what we spoke, puro espanol. It was all Spanish because my mama only knew Spanish. My daddy knew English and Spanish, but out of respect for my mom, we only spoke Spanish. 

Mandi Morris: Something that you touched on too is I love that you called out that the conversation at home would be limited to yes, no questions.

And I’m thinking about the background knowledge and the schema that is built at home in a child’s L1 or first language, your experiences of going to Mexico in the summer and selling [00:28:00] Spices with your cousin and your grandfather, those experiences wouldn’t have built the same background knowledge or schema for you if you hadn’t been able to communicate in your heritage language with your family.

And that background knowledge is so important for students when we think about them being able to show up in content classes and to be able to engage in that discourse, the rigorous experience, academic experience like you had talked about before. Exactly. 

Mary Castanuela: Exactly. And. I was very fortunate that being raised on a ranch, you learn a lot because it’s all hands on.

I would help mark lambs. I help with the sheep shearing. I would help dress a goat. I would help dress a deer. And guess what? We talked about that. The process. We talked about what the expectations were at the end of how do you store the meat? How do you cook it? Think about all the math and science that’s being used in the primary language just by dressing a goat or a [00:29:00] deer.

But if we’re only going to use English and that is so limited, then guess what? I would have not flourished because it would have been like point and say this and yes, and you just that was it. So that then becomes a missed opportunity when we promote that they only speak English. They need to be using their primary language.

We want that conversation to happen. We want it to be language rich, be it whatever language it is. 

Justin Hewett: Let’s shift gears a little bit. And I would love Mary to dive into the work that you are doing today. Here you are, you’re at ESC 15. You are the regional testing coordinator there. You work with 48 school districts.

There’s a lot going on over there. What is a day in the life or maybe a week in the life, or I bet there’s a lot of variety to some degree, but what are you responsible for over there? And what is your interaction with the districts look like? 

Mary Castanuela: Okay, my goodness. So [00:30:00] I am constantly juggling different programs throughout the entire day.

And so it’s the constant of, okay, how am I going to answer this question? Depending on the question, the scenario, I have to either put on my hat as the title three education specialist. And so what that encompasses is that I help all school districts with any questions or concerns, scenarios that they may have that deals with their emergent bilingual students, or what we would refer to as English learners that are either in their program or not even in their program.

So giving that guidance of, first of all, state compliance and federal compliance. What does that look like? And what should be happening? But then the layer on top of that is what is best for the student? What is best for the student? And so Biggest thing is compliance and then adding in the best practices and what are the [00:31:00] expectations.

And sometimes I have to remind school districts, and this is just, it’s going to happen anywhere that there are teams of people working together, collaborating. It’s just human nature. Sometimes I have to remind them, we are the adults here and we got to keep ourselves in check. We all are on the same playground.

share the playground equipment and play nice. And the reason I have to say that is because sometimes you’ll have two different programs fighting against each other over one student. And I always have to remind them, not one committee is above the other committee. For example, LPAC is not above ARD. ARD is not above LPAC.

We are to be working together. for the student. And so if we’re sharing the same merry go round, but LPAC is pushing one way and the ARD is pushing the opposite way, guess what? That merry go round is not going to go anywhere. So at the end of the day, the only person being hurt in this [00:32:00] situation is the student.

is the child. So share the playground equipment, play nice. So that’s usually my role as a title three education specialist in that area. But also another area of title three is I am the fiscal agent. For 30 as of right now, I believe I have 38 school districts where they give me their title three monies and I run their title three program.

So I’m the one that negotiates with different vendors, such as computer program licenses. Such as Flashlight 360, where if they feel they want to use this computer program to be supplemental, now that’s the key word, supplemental, to their bilingual, their ESL program, I get to be the person that does all the paperwork, Edgar, Love the term Edgar.

All that wonderful paperwork, all the hoops that we have to jump through, negotiate a price, and then actually purchase the program for them and make sure that they’re using it appropriately, that it’s showing [00:33:00] progress with our students. And on top of that, also do all the professional development for them, parent, family, and community engagement.

So that’s a whole lot with 38 school districts that I’m in charge of. So it’s the constant communication with that. That all encompasses title three right there in a nutshell. 

Justin Hewett: And that’s why you are booked out until like mid December right now. 

Mary Castanuela: Pretty much. It really is because they’re needing assistance.

And sometimes I even go out and spend the entire day going through their LPAC folders and looking at, are we in compliance? What are some suggestions that I may could give them? And sometimes I’m like, Ooh, wow, this is not good. But guess what? This happened last year. There’s no way we can go back and rectify it.

So this is what we’re going to do and how. But my next step is then what are you going to do to be pro that this doesn’t happen again? So that’s always my leading end is how are we going to be proactive that this doesn’t happen again? [00:34:00] We got to give ourselves grace because we are human. Mistakes are going to happen period.

They are, however, don’t ignore it, learn from it, and now make sure you do better for somebody else’s child. That’s always the key. 

Justin Hewett: You have a really unique position working with so many different districts. You have such great insight into what is working, what isn’t working, what’s moving the needle, what’s not moving the needle when you are, maybe just a couple quick questions.

We’ll just go rapid fire on this. And then I want to go deeper, but. When you’re working with the school districts, those 38, for example, or 30, 38 that you’re directly overseeing their Title III departments, when you’re meeting with the district, who are you meeting with? Are you meeting with EL teachers or are you meeting with assistant superintendents?

Who are you working with at the district? 

Mary Castanuela: It actually depends. I will tell you my teeny tiny rural school districts, their ESL teacher is their ESL coordinator. So usually that’s who I’m [00:35:00] meeting with most of the time. Once we get up into 3A, 4A school districts, then usually it is either the counselor or the assistant superintendent.

And then the bigger school districts do actually then have a true bilingual ESL director. And that’s then who I meet with in those situations. 

Justin Hewett: I love that. So one of my business, I don’t know if I quite call him a hero, but like somebody I look up to and I’ve learned a lot from is a guy named Charlie Munger.

He was Warren Buffett’s partner for a lot of years at Berkshire Hathaway. He just recently passed actually. And one of the things that he says that I have loved and adopted into my vernacular. And I use it all the time. My team will attest to that, which is tell me where I’m going to die and I’ll never go there.

And I guess the reason I, so I bring that up here because Mary, you, in working with so many different districts, you see Where people die, right? You see where the bones are buried. You see where a department goes, if they make this decision and then this decision, it is going to [00:36:00] take years for us to recover or whatever that might be, what are some of those things that you see where if a district does this, or if a district does that, and we will not name any of those districts or people, but if you were to highlight some of the biggest things You know, maybe pitfalls or challenges that our districts run into and serving our emergent bilingual students.

What would those be? 

Mary Castanuela: Oh my goodness I guess the biggest one that I saw and it’s been several years ago And unfortunately, we are still dealing with the ramifications of that decision Was when a leader decided to change the program completely. And what happened was we went into a rabbit hole where the students were literally focusing just on English language development for so many hours.

That they did not get that opportunity to be in the [00:37:00] actual classroom learning the content, but also on top of that, being the, being pulled away from their electives or their time to interact with classmates where they could have conversations because that social language has to happen first. And so that social language then allows them to get more comfortable with the English language, but also for them to feel.

take risk. And when all o away and just the focus w english language for so m the content, we lost thos that went on for a couple that first came upon, I w The school district, I did advise them. I feel like this is not conducive to this, to the students educational journey. It, they still move forward with it.

And unfortunately, all of those students, it have, it went on for, I believe, three years. Research has shown for every bad year, it [00:38:00] takes four good solid years to make up that one bad year. If they did it for three years, that’s 12 years. of solid education for that child to make up those years. And so we’re still seeing those ramifications for those students that there were an elementary now in their high school, and they’re not meeting graduation requirements because they don’t have the foundation in the content.

Justin Hewett: That is really sad. The students also miss out on community. And so they, they miss that ability to be part of the group. They’re not feeling as a part of 1. 5 of a generation, Mexican American or wherever that might be because to some degree they are feeling like, Okay, I’m isolated. I’m just over here working on English where everyone else, they get to do all these other things and they get the electives and they get to have more fun.

And I barely know anybody. 

Mary Castanuela: And I think with situations like that. I always have to keep myself in check and that they have a different perspective. But on top of that, it’s always with good intention. But [00:39:00] sadly, that good intention involves bad practices, which then at the end of the day again, the only person being hurt is that student.

It’s always with good intentions, but sometimes We have to make sure we stay on the right pathway for our students because that’s somebody else’s child that you are responsible for. Always remember that. 

Justin Hewett: Yeah. I, and I appreciate you pointing that out because I think you’re right. I think the only reason they would do it is because they felt like it was going to make a difference and help the kids and the biggest in the best way possible.

And it’s just one of those things where, you know, if we’re not taking into account The domino effect of some of this, right? You would think, yeah, Hey, a lot of intense language development. Of course, that’s going to be great. Yes, let’s go. But when you isolate that and it’s in a vacuum, Oh wait, it’s not in a vacuum.

You can’t isolate that variable. It’s just not the way that it works. 

Mary Castanuela: I always do an analogy to The Biggest Loser. Did y’all ever watch that show? The Biggest Loser, where [00:40:00] they, so they’re so intense and focus of losing weight, but they very much control their portions of food because they have somebody cooking for them.

But then they literally work out the entire day. Okay, once you join the real world, That’s not what’s going to happen. That’s not realistic. And so that’s how when that was happening. I was I made that analogy. It’s but guess what we’re doing. We’re setting them up for a very unrealistic environment.

This is not going to be happening everywhere. So again, great intentions. It’s just sometimes we lose What’s truly conducive. I want 

Justin Hewett: to pull on that thread a little bit, not necessarily here, but I want to go to another one. And what is another maybe programmatic change or pedagogical decision or something along those lines that, that a district has made that also resulted in.

Maybe [00:41:00] the opposite of growth, the students not growing, right? Students stagnating or even falling back and having even more unfinished learning to go with. Are there any others that come to mind that you can share? 

Mary Castanuela: Yes. A very popular one. And I just dealt with this not too long ago, but we go back to the I Poverecito syndrome.

Oh, you poor little thing to where, if you don’t know English, then we’re not going to let you do all of this. Oh, we’re just going to translate everything for you. And the problem with that, human nature is you give us a little bit, we’re going to take, but we’re going to take more and more. The more you give me, the more I’m going to take, and it then becomes a crutch.

And when we fall into that pitfall of let’s just translate everything for them, then the, what happens is we’re taking away the opportunity for them to actually learn the English language. Because at some point human nature is like, why should I learn English? Everything’s going to be translated for me.

At some point. So [00:42:00] why should I even make an effort to learn the English language? If they don’t have that intrinsic motivation, then guess what? They’re not going to make that effort to learn the English language and you can’t blame them because it’s giving it to them all in, in their language. And so that’s been a huge pitfall for many school districts of, let’s just do this for the student.

Then when they try to push back and say, we need you to learn some English. Then that child, we have behavioral issues. We have digging in the heels. We have teachers saying, oh, I give he’s not even trying Let’s just translate everything. Guess what? That’s not the real world in with school districts that are Located within the United States where they’re bordering with other countries, realistically, how they’re going to function out in the real world, they’re probably going to see the English language in more than likely their primary language, right?

For example, if I travel to a [00:43:00] certain town that’s within my region, if I go to Sonic, guess what? It’s in English and it’s in Spanish. If I go to their Walmart, I’m walking around. They will make an announcement in English and then in Spanish. At some point, human nature is like, why should I learn another language if we don’t have that intrinsic motivation?

Because everything is being given to me. Even in my own language. One of those is just translating everything for the student. We cannot do that because that then, again, becomes a disservice to that student. Because if they move away from within that community, that everything is done in two languages because of where they’re located, guess what?

To even get a job, they’re going to have to know English. So that’s a disservice to the child. Not only academically, but just in real life, they’re not prepared. They’re not prepared. 

Mandi Morris: I love that so much, Marion. I’ve dealt with that working with coaching [00:44:00] teachers over the years, both content teachers and ELD specialists, where that, where’s that balance where you’re providing a scaffold for a student, but then when do you take away the scaffolds?

We like talk a lot, like a scaffold can become a crutch, right? You’ve heard that expression, like when is it time to remove that? And I love you talking about the translation piece and calling that out, that at some point That’s not a scaffold anymore. It’s actually replacing the rigor and expectation for content.

And another way that I think about it too, is that the ACT the state language assessments and the end of year courses, those assessments are in English and we have high expectations of our students, right? And what their future will look like. So also framing it in the short term versus long term. The long term goal for the student is that they can Be in an interview in the native language of the United States, that they can create a resume for themselves, that they will have a career, do the SAT, go to college, whatever their goals are, but that we’re doing our best to prepare them for that [00:45:00] academically.

Mary Castanuela: Absolutely. And that’s the reason when, even if it’s at pre K or kinder here in Texas, and the parents are still iffy, if they want their child in the bilingual program, or if it’s an ESL program, they’re like, Oh, I don’t think I want them in there. My thing is I don’t care how young they are. Explain to the parents that in Texas there’s graduation requirements.

Which means they have to meet standard on five EOCs. English 1, English 2, Biology, U. S. History, and Algebra 1. Guess what? All of those exams are in English. And they are academic English. Not the social English. It’s academic. And so a lot of parents don’t understand that. They still have a misconception about our educational system.

Even I even have family that still do. We don’t have graduation requirements anymore since COVID. I’m like, no, yes, we do. Cause that’s my other hat as a regional testing coordinator. And so I have to have those conversations. It’s not just [00:46:00] coming to school every day and pulling a 70. It’s coming to school and pulling way higher than a 70.

Cause if you have a bad semester, you have now failed for the entire year. If you barely pulled a 70 on the first semester and you made a 68 on the second semester, you’ve just missed an opportunity for full credit, right? Especially at high school. But the thing is you still have graduation requirements and they’re all in English, but I also bring it back to.

Is your child going to go to college? No, they’re not going to go to university. They’re going to junior college. Okay, great. No, I’m going to go to technical school. That’s phenomenal. You’re probably going to make more money than me as a, as an electrician within the first year. That’s phenomenal. And I’m going to need you on speed dial.

I love it. But guess what? All of those three areas, including the military, what’s expected? English. So at the end of the day, it’s still a disservice. regardless of whether what their intentions or their plans are for post secondary. We [00:47:00] are to provide the opportunities for them to be successful as citizens of our community, of our state, of our country.

So let’s always keep that in mind. How can we best prepare them to become those citizens that are going to give back to their community, to their state, to their nation? 

Justin Hewett: So I want to ask the question of where’s the line then? Because earlier we were talking about how important it is for our students to maintain their heritage.

And we want them to keep speaking to them in Spanish at home. We don’t, but don’t translate everything. I’m like, how do you draw that line? I’m thinking of myself as like a, I was a first year educator and I had listened to this whole podcast and be like, Man, I’m supposed to make sure that they’re building their Spanish language, but I’m not supposed to not use Spanish too much But I’m supposed to teach them English so they can go get a job, but I’m not supposed to do too much [00:48:00] Like how do you balance that Mary when you’re talking with a maybe a new educator?

Let’s just pretend like you’re talking with a first year educator trying to figure this out. And what is the balance walk me through that 

Mary Castanuela: That I feel like we’re on a tightrope now and just trying to balance out and not fall off of it. That’s a great question. And honestly, and I hate to be this way, but this is what I do with my school districts.

If they send me a scenario and they’re like, what do you think? And I’m like, Hold on. I have about five more questions for you before I will give you guidance because every child is different. Every scenario is different. Every situation is different. And so keeping that in mind, honestly, what I come down to is if this child is in their first three years in the United States, then we need to give some grace to that child to where we allow that heritage language still to be used.

Now, let me [00:49:00] be very clear. This is specifically for any program, bilingual or ESL. Okay, it’s okay to still use some of that heritage language, especially the first three years. Now, the third year, honestly, if we’ve done a really great job of Motivating them to learn the English language because that’s the only way they’re going to grab it is that motivation because honestly, my motivation was I was the only Mexican girl in my kinder class.

You know what my motivation was? I wanted to play with everybody at recess. The only way I could play with them was if I learned English. So that was my motivation. So the first step is figuring out what is the motivation for this child to learn the English language, but giving them the grace. But again, once they start showing that they’re picking it up, then start pulling away a little bit from that heritage language.

But then you can still honor it by saying, so how would you have said that in your language, in your Spanish language? Wow, that’s amazing. [00:50:00] That may be something you want to share with your mom and dad. Or with, when you’re doing a family reunion, look at what you’re bringing to the table because you’re now also learning some of the words in Spanish or your primary language that you were not aware of till we talked about it.

And now it’s a cognate. So it looks the same, sounds the same, means the same. You’re like, no, I know that word now. And so how I would deal with my kids learning that was it makes you more interesting as a sage, as a speaker, as an author, because once you start using that language, people want to hear more, they want to read more.

That would be in any program, right? What I was talking about. But if the child has now been here. Six plus years and you’re still struggling with them using some English, then somewhere we miss the boat with this child and what we miss making a connection with that child. We miss the [00:51:00] opportunity to help that child understand that.

Our expectation is for them to be successful in two languages, especially in the English, in our community, in our state, in our nation. But on top of that, we did not push them to become better. We pushed them that it’s okay if we stay here versus look at how much talent you have an opportunity to have two languages under your belt versus one.

One language. What an amazing opportunity. 

Justin Hewett: That resonates with me. I’m ready to go now. I understand it. No, seriously. I actually really appreciate you providing a little bit of a framework there. I think that being able to say, Hey, those first three years, let’s give the student grades, let’s give them as many tools and supports and scaffoldings as we can, and then let’s just make sure we’re super intentional about that.

And then we make sure they continue to have supports and that they feel supported, but. That they are also being pushed because now it’s time to [00:52:00] be pushed. And there’s a lot of other things that might be going on at that home or at flashlight, we have these cultural pathways where sometimes we’ll hear students talking about their experience.

One of the directors, we actually just had him on the podcast, Dave Gomez. He is the equity director in Granite school district. He had this. Kind of vision that he wanted to have his refugee students telling their story of where they came from and what their experiences and to hear some of these students stories is from their own voice and being able to log into Flashlight and listen to it was really powerful.

And I think highlights exactly what you’re seeing here without seeing it, which is in those first couple of years, when our students arrive in our classrooms and in our school districts, the reality is this, they’re going through a lot more most likely than just learning English, just learning a new language.

And so I think giving them those grace and supports is really valuable and important, but we have to remember at some point. We need to be a little more intentional in pushing them at first. It’s [00:53:00] open arms. Get in here. Let’s go spend some time together. Let’s create as welcoming and comfort comfortable of an environment as we can.

And then at some point we have to start introducing discomfort and growth and a push. And is that a good way to think about that? 

Mary Castanuela: Yeah, absolutely. Cause as an adult, I think we also need to remind ourselves the only way we can grow is that we got to get uncomfortable. That’s the only way we’re going to grow.

We have to have discomfort in our life for us to grow. If we are comfortable, a hundred percent, 24, seven, 365 days of the year. You become stagnant and that’s in anything that you’re doing as a person, period. And so I feel that as an educator, we sometimes need to model that with our students as well. And so when I’m doing professional development, I like to share with teachers of sometimes you got to do some things in your classroom that makes you uncomfortable [00:54:00] as an educator, but it’s going to provide an opportunity for your students to learn because at the end of the day.

That’s your responsibility as an educator and what you can control is within those four walls, then let’s use those full 50 minutes, even if it makes me a little uncomfortable, but it helps my students learn, then let’s do it. And I like to share a funny story because I used to teach also Spanish. And I would teach Spanish using sign language.

I would say the word, show them the sign language. Muchacha, we would do this for the blue bonnet. Muchacho, below the cap. Anytime I said muchacha, they would do this. Anytime I said muchacho, they would do this. And I knew what they knew what it meant. We then started using them in stories. They then practice saying the words.

So they mimicked a lot before they actually started saying all the words, because my whole thing is, as long as you’re trying to pronounce it, I am good. I’m [00:55:00] not going to correct you because the whole point is you’re putting yourself out there. But there was one vocabulary word that I was using, which was matar, which is to kill.

And I was reading the story and it said something such as El Muchacho. And I do the gesture and I go, and then I just fell, literally just fell on the floor. And all the kids are like, Missy, are you okay? They just, these were high school kids. And they’re like, Oh my God, Missy, are you okay? What’s wrong? I was like, okay, so tell me, by me just doing this, what do you think this one verb means?

And they were sat there and they’re like, it means this, bam, they made a connection without me telling them. So guess what? Anytime they were taking a test and they had that verb, guess what they did? They looked at the spot where I fell because that’s how they remembered it. Was it uncomfortable for me?

Absolutely, I was uncomfortable, but it was what was needed for my kids to learn. And [00:56:00] so again, we have to help our students understand the value of being bilingual and learning that English language and being realistic about them. But also then that means you put yourself out there as an educator and being uncomfortable and helping them.

It all starts with motivation and that respect between you and the student. What are you willing to do? 

Justin Hewett: I love that, Mary. I can see you using that sign language and then falling to the ground, let me see, I can see that and I, and all the drama that would be in a high school classroom. So I love that.

I think that’s fantastic. I have to say, Mary, this has been such a delightful conversation. I can’t believe we’re already into this an hour and we’re going to have to commit you to come back because I want to dive into more on the testing side and talk some more about some of those things, but there’s a few things that we would love to get to.

We have a lightning round here. With a few questions that we’d love to ask you. And these end up, it’s amazing. You’ve shared so many wonderful like insights and nuggets and [00:57:00] frameworks that I think will be really helpful in stories that people will really enjoy today from our conversation today. And these are a little bit more little nuggets that oftentimes end up being like the most impactful actually, because they’re just short and sweet and to the point.

And Mandi, why don’t you kick us off here? 

Mandi Morris: Absolutely. Um, I would love to hear you talk some about a practice that you have seen implemented that makes a move for students that you want to see more of. 

Mary Castanuela: Oh my goodness. Keyword collaboration. These kids are everybody’s kids. These kids are not just an English learner or EB during reading, math, science, and social studies.

They are an EB or an English learner, so guess what? They are our kids. And we have to remember, God put those students in your pathway for a reason. Don’t lose focus of that. 

Justin Hewett: Oh, that really resonates with me. In Iowa, they had a conference [00:58:00] that they called Our Kids for that reason. As just a reminder that these are our kids.

All our kids, right? I love that. Mary, that’s fantastic. What would you say, what is a piece of advice that you would give to the first time EL director? They’re just stepping into the role, they’ve been a teacher, what advice would you give them? 

Mary Castanuela: Always show grace with your staff members, show grace with your colleagues, show grace with your students.

We’re all human. We all have great intentions. Sometimes there will be bad decisions made. But guess what? Everybody makes bad decisions at some time of their lives. So show grace and then offer what is the first step that we need to do and how can I help you with it? 

Justin Hewett: That is so good. And maybe even give grace to yourself.

Don’t forget that you’re new to your role and you are going to be drinking from the fire hose for the first year, you don’t really even know all the things that are going on. The second year, you know what’s going on, but [00:59:00] you’re trying to catch up. And then the third year you’ve got it. 

Mary Castanuela: It takes a couple of years.

And another thing is just learn to say, you’re sorry, own a bad decision. If it was yours, own it and apologize. It just. You’re going to earn a lot more respect that way than anyway, anywhere else. If you made a bad decision, own it, but apologize as well and then move forward. 

Justin Hewett: So good. 

Mandi Morris: Mary, what is a time that you’ve had a light bulb moment or an aha experience around language development and that it’s changed your approach as an educator or informed your approach as an educator in some way?

Mary Castanuela: Oh my goodness. I would have to say it was. My 10th grade year as a sophomore, then we had the very thick English book that we followed and we did a lot of fill in the blank and type of things. And I was in the top three of my class and my [01:00:00] English teacher, English two, gave us a paragraph to complete. And it had to deal with describing the inside of an airplane.

And we were using prepositional phrases. This girl never had been on an airplane. Never. My first experience being on an airplane was in 11th grade. So I had no clue back then there was no internet, the encyclopedias. We only have three of them and we didn’t have the letter A. So I couldn’t look up airplane to see how it looked like.

But so I filled it out as best as I could. And so when I turned it in, of course I did not do well. And my teacher called me out and said, you must have forgotten to do your homework because you failed it. And you always do good. And, but she just ringed me out and I started to cry. And so she dismissed everybody and she’s okay, Mary, what’s wrong?

What’s going on? She goes, why are you just like, why are you so upset? And I’m like, it’s not because I didn’t do my homework or that I [01:01:00] forgot. I just don’t know how the inside of an airplane looks. And I’m too embarrassed to say that. never have been inside an airplane. So that’s the reason I didn’t ask for help.

That right there was the light bulb moment of it doesn’t always just deal with language. It’s just exposure and experience and developing that background knowledge for our students. And so that’s when I said, I want to be an educator that helps those students embrace it and not be embarrassed. Sorry, got a little emotional there.

My goodness. 

Justin Hewett: Mary, I’m just sitting here and I’ve just enjoyed this conversation so much. And I’m just so impressed with you as a leader and the energy that you bring, you have tremendous charisma, but then you also have great understanding of the work we’re doing and a way to communicate it and to share it and to teach it, and I guess I can tell that you are full of like great hope that you have a lot of, Kind of optimism around you that you believe in the better world that [01:02:00] you’re trying to work to create.

And I guess as my last question, as far as this lightning round, it’s a little different than I was going to ask, but I want to know where for you, where does that optimism and that hope, where does that energy come from? 

Mary Castanuela: Honestly, it’s when I see my past students and they come and hug on me and they say, thank you.

That’s what gives me that optimism and the hope that I’m on the right track. I’m on the right pathway I think I’m doing things that are being impactful because there are times that I always think am I on the right track or am I not you just start to self doubt and when I have those moments of self doubt God answers In a way, the most current one, and like I said, it was past students, but then I’ve also input in situations where I do run into teachers, and it could have been an educator that I thought, oh, you hated being in my professional development.

You were, yeah, you were not happy being with me that day. But I got [01:03:00] that sense. And then I run into them and they hugged me and they said, you do not realize how much you changed. My life, what you made me understand. And those are the moments that give me the optimism. But the biggest one was, and it just came up on my memory on Facebook.

That’s the reason I remember it was last year, I had a school district call me and said, we’re working with this high school student and we are really floundering with her. We’re trying our best to keep her motivated and we’re spending our wheels in the mud and we’re not getting anywhere. Do you mind coming and just.

visiting with her and see if you can get more out of her than what we are. Maybe she’ll be a little bit more comfortable with you. And so that’s sure. Why not? I’m there. So I drive out to the school district and visiting with the principal and the counselor. And they gave me some more background because of course I wanted more background information about the child.

Like what’s the duration, how long, all that good stuff. And they bring in the student and we start talking. And one of [01:04:00] my first questions I asked, I said, where do you see yourself? Where do you see yourself after you finish high school? What is it that you feel you’re going to be at? And she started sharing.

And of course, this is all in Spanish and she shares what she wants to be, which is an engineer and she wants to go to college in Houston. But as soon as she said that very quickly, she then says, but I know I probably will never make it there. And I said, why do you say that? And she said, I’m trying my best to learn the English language.

I really am. And I’m trying my best to pass on my classes and I’m trying my best to pass all the ELC. She goes, I get, I have to do all of that. And then she went into what was happening at home. Talk about trying not to cry. I’m trying not to cry right now. Just thinking about what she shared and the principal and the counselor understand a little bit of Spanish.

So they caught on some of the story that she was telling. [01:05:00] And they start crying. Let’s just say after 45 minutes of visiting with that young lady, we were all crying. I can tell you that was another moment where I felt the optimism and hope of this is why I do what I do because what an opportunity for me to have this.

But guess what, at the end, that principal and counselor knew immediately what else they needed to do to help that child. And that child now is a senior, is on track to graduate and hopefully we can get her to hopefully Houston, if not to another university. I know our local university has a great engineering department.

We’re going to do what is best for that child to meet that life expectation. And yeah, that’s what gives me hope because when I walked out, the look on her face and the look in that child’s eyes, that’s show a lot more hope than when they first looked like when they came into that office and to know now [01:06:00] there’s a team of people that no more So now that they know more, they will do better.

That’s the whole point. No more and do better, 

Justin Hewett: better information leads to better inspiration. And I love that. I also 

Mary Castanuela: hope there for our future right there. 

Justin Hewett: I love that you share that story. And I love that optimism. I really comes through and everything that you shared with us today, you said something that really resonated with me that sometimes when you run into a challenge and not know necessarily where to go, you could turn to God.

And I think that God’s hand really is in this work. I think there’s a lot of goodness that there is to be done and with each of these children. And I love that. I think that really resonates a lot with me, but this young lady, I think is her story is the story that of many of our students all across the nation.

And I think that if we can take the time to better understand the needs of our students and what they’re trying to accomplish that why matters. And [01:07:00] understanding that why, aligning around that why, having that purpose, I think that really makes all the difference. Mary, I am ready for number two. We’re going to get on your schedule for that middle of December.

We’re going to make that happen. But really, what a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you so much for being here. 

Mary Castanuela: Thank y’all so much for the invite. I so appreciate it. And thank y’all for y’all’s patience and y’all’s grace with my crazy schedule and scheduling and then postponing and then Rescheduling.

And so thank y’all so much. It’s, I appreciate that. And that y’all thought of me, that’s to me, that’s just amazing. I was sharing it with my husband. I was like, I’m going to be on a national podcast. And he’s like, what? That’s awesome. But I know it’s weird, but scary, but so cool at the same 

Justin Hewett: time. Wow. Thank you so much for being here as a part of the ML chat podcast.