This week on the ML Chat Podcast Tim Blackburn joins us again to continue the conversation around the formative assessment process. Tim walks us through having a clear intended learning destination, designing deliberate invitations for students to apprentice in target skills, and analyzing and interpreting how students are growing in the concepts, skills, and language.
Automated Transcript
Justin Hewett
All right. Welcome back, everybody. My name is Justin Hewitt. And I have the privilege of sitting here again, with my good friend, Tim Blackburn. Tim is the officially the title three administrator for Tiger, Tualatin School District, just outside of Portland, and Portland, Oregon, and, you know, works with our multilingual students. And, and we have been kind of talking through clear intended learning. Tim, welcome to the show. Welcome back.
Tim Blackburn
Thanks, Justin. Yeah, thanks.
Justin Hewett
Do you mind giving us just, you know, we’ve kind of been doing this as a, as a multi part series. Do you mind talking through a little bit what we’ve covered, and then maybe just give us a quick preview of what we’re gonna get into today, as far as interpreting and analyzing evidence?
Tim Blackburn
Sure. You know, basically, you know, Justin, we’ve we’ve delved into a four part cycle of learning. It’s called the formative assessment process. It’s also known as formative assessment practice. But again, you know, these concepts are, they’re not mine. Right? But rather, they were developed by our colleagues at understanding language at Stanford. And you’ll find that, yes, they are crucial steps for serving multilingual students. But I think if you were to zoom out, you would say, well, this, just what we’re describing is really just very sound instructional practice. And that is really, because of the the intentionality behind it. And so, you know, part one that we discussed as having clear intended learning, that I have, like a very clear sense of the destination, I know that I want my students to know and be able to do certain skills and understand certain concepts and apply those concepts and novel ways. And crucially, that my students have the language skills required for success and explaining and articulating those understandings. So it’s those, those three dimensions that we that we discussed, that are crucial lenses for defining that clear intended learning, class concepts. Disciplinary skills are also known as disciplinary practices. It’s kind of like those verbs at the start of our common core standards. And thirdly, the associated language demand. And then, you know, after after we discussed clear intended learning, we talked about the ways in which we design deliberate invitations for our students to apprentice in those three skill dimensions over time, and how we kind of design learning in such a way that it spirals and offers students you know, supported spaces, right, to to learn these concepts to try on these practices, and to develop the associated language. And we call that step eliciting evidence. That is, you know, exactly where the, yeah, we’re the facilitators of the learning, right. It’s not on us to impart all of the knowledge, but rather, to design the experiences that our students are able to build competency in those in those target, target chunks of knowledge and the target concepts, the target skills and, and, and the language. But, you know, for today, it’s all about discussing tools to to analyze and interpret how our students are growing in, in those in those concepts, the skills and the language, to what extent have our students grown as a result of the learning that we’ve designed. And the next time, the next time we meet, we’ll unpack what it means to actually, you know, act on what we, what we’ve ascertained through this formative assessment cycle.
Justin Hewett
I love that. Love that. I’m excited to talk about eliciting evidence today. Before we get there. I want to just you mentioned that, you know, yes, this is best practices for serving our multilingual students. But really, it’s just best practices in general and abroad. Talk to that maybe just a little bit if you don’t mind just because you know, or maybe unpack it because I’m just kind of thinking about, you know, if it is best practice, and it’s something we know we should be doing with you know, really All students, why does it sometimes not happen? With our multilingual students? Or maybe why is it? You know, when it doesn’t happen? Why is it not happening?
Tim Blackburn
I think it’s a fair question. I don’t know that I have, like, a great, like a great answer for it. But, you know, my, actually, my wife, Lisa, she, you know, during the pandemic, you know, we were all working from home. And I really at one point, you know, during, during a conversation with a colleague, you know, I just really, like, unpacked to these four ID ideas. And then my wife looked over to me afterwards, and she said, Are you still talking about that, like, you’re, you’ve been talking about this, your entire career, and this is like, still like a, you know, an area of of need, and I choose not to really, like have like, a, a deficit orientation, to procrastinate to think about it as an opportunity for you to call attention to the ways in which the this process these practices are basically, you know, an invitation for us to think about our own practice in a critical way. Yeah. And, and I think a lot of that comes down to actually chin, like challenging our mental model for what school looks like, sounds like and feels like. And, and further, you know, I don’t think our school systems do us any favors in that regard. I mean, we basically, in a lot of ways, you have to think about what is the impact of, quote, unquote, covering the standards, or teaching to a specific, you know, like, a curriculum, and kind of like, the implicit messages that that school district leaders and, you know, just educate, and certainly, you know, the broader, broader school systems, you know, at the state and federal level, what are we actually communicating in terms of, you know, the teachers role and imparting skills? Again, like, I don’t have that answer, Justin. Yeah. But I can speak from my experience as a as a classroom teacher, and, you know, and noting that sort of that tension, you know, between, you know, like, covering the content and, you know, responding to my students needs.
Justin Hewett
Yeah, there’s the, there’s that challenge of, of the system that’s in place in the certain expectations of what needs to be taught, and, you know, what you need to, you know, as we talked about last time, what needs to be covered, right? And what you have to get to, and it’s just interesting to think about, you know, how much of it is teacher training, and how much of it is the just the educational system in general that we have in place, right, and like, how we have the common core, and we have the standards, we have these different anyways, it’s, it’s interesting to try and work through that and think about it.
Tim Blackburn
It is, I mean, but I mean, I see, you know, teachers coming coming out of me, you know, graduate, you know, teacher education programs now, and I’m really impressed by what I see. There are certain like policy, there are certain policies that seem to be panning out in terms of teacher prep, and, you know, the ways in which, you know, I hear, you know, my my colleagues that are new to the profession in the way I hear them talking about, say, the impact of Ed TPA, and just the impact of those performance tasks on their own learning. You know, that that seems to be really positive, you know, and then I kind of, you know, endured a different system didn’t have those, those real performance tasks associated with it. That was mostly sort of a trial by fire being an alternative like a product of an alternative pathway, but
Justin Hewett
defining Edie TPA for anybody
Tim Blackburn
Oh, I wish I had the acronym at TPA is a comment. It’s a Performance Task. We’re probably gonna have to go back and rerecord this. But it’s, uh oh, goodness.
Justin Hewett
I can ask that question again.
Tim Blackburn
Yeah, like, I imagine it’s something like teacher performance assessment or something like okay, but I am making that up. But effectively, it’s like a series of performance tasks that teachers do. for the novice teachers have to develop and respond to you and actually apply in a classroom setting as a student teacher.
Justin Hewett
Okay, well, I love this, I appreciate you kind of thinking through that a little bit with me just, you know, when we were talking about best practice, it just kind of made me think like, well, if we already know, like, this is the best way to do it, why aren’t we doing it with everybody? Right? Let’s jump in.
Tim Blackburn
Just the way that you describe that it’s like, yes. Eric question,
Justin Hewett
let’s do it. Let’s go with it. So let’s jump into eliciting, you know, or we talked about eliciting evidence, I guess, last time and like, you know, how to do it, why to do it, what to do it and we gave some examples and whatnot. So yeah, you’ve you’ve gathered that evidence to talk to us about like, where do we go from here? How do we interpret how do we analyze this? You know, how do we really understand it and approach this work?
Tim Blackburn
Well, I think that what is so crucial to understand is that this is where the through line to clear intended learning is so so crucial, right? Because, you know, now that you’ve created these invitations for students to show you what they know, and are able to do, and you’re like, you’re clear on what it is that you’re actually looking for, in terms of, alright, this is what I want them to know, how do I see those concepts come up in their in their writing, and in their, their language output in terms of speaking and I think that’s probably like the fundamental concept associated with with elicit evidence is all about the output. And so when you think about interpreting and analyzing the evidence, and you think about it as like, applying a set of lenses on top of that language output so what is it that I’m actually looking for, okay, I’ve articulated those things in my learning outcomes. Now, analyzing that that evidence now it’s it’s basically taking a knee or taking tools like proficiency scales, rubrics, tools to help you determine where your students start. And how they’re growing in those targets skills over time through their through their, for their classwork. And I think there’s like, there’s so many like things to unpack here. But like, firstly, that is just as far as like proficiency scales go. We’re not making this stuff up. I mean, this sounds like, you know, John Hattie’s, and Robert Marzano is work on on, you know, effective best practices for building student metacognition. And so, you know, here, it’s, it’s really like kind of emphasizing to, to students that they are indeed partners in the work and that it’s not just about me as your teacher giving you a grade. And that’s kind of like, the cool part about this, Justin, is that like, when I made this shift, grading became a partnership. And it was no longer like a problematic sort of mystery, right, that the Gradebook was all of a sudden, it is, like public and open to the student. And they’re partners in this process.
Justin Hewett
And I can imagine that was so empowering for the students, right, because now they really understood where they were at. And it wasn’t just this, you know, this ambiguous, you know, thing that, oh, I got this score.
Tim Blackburn
I got to see on this one, what does that mean? No, but rather, oh, I’m still emerging in this particular class concepts, but it looks like I’m growing in the skills of evaluating an argument. And it looks like I’m also improving in the ways in which I’m using compare and contrast language.
Justin Hewett
Are those proficiency scales? Is that like, is that something that I would gather from Elk or wheat? Or something like that?
Tim Blackburn
Can? Yeah, they’re not that those wouldn’t be necessarily like, very well, excuse me, I shouldn’t speak to wait, because they did do it differently. But the, you know, there, there are, yes, plenty of proficiency scales, to, to look at, I think as resources for, for me building your own proficiency skills, your proficiency scales, for your classroom tasks, but it is really important that the scales do indeed match your clear intended learning. What I find is that the scales really informing Give me language for describing the discrepancies between steps. And what I might expect of an emergent, multilingual learner on a compare and contrast task in a ninth grade world history classroom. What could that look like in terms of the degree of scaffolding to support students and generating grade level grade level work. So, again, just to reiterate here, that probably the most important part of this interpreting evidence concept is really not so much about the teacher. But really, it’s the fostering of the partnership between teacher and student, and then evaluating the extent to which our students are growing and the target skills and really encouraging and fostering, that, that that awareness right of how I’m growing and my skills, and so that’s kind of the crucial, crucial foundation there.
Justin Hewett
I want to kind of think about that for just a second. Because, you know, I love what, you know, looking at that list that had compiled of the top influences on student achievement, right, and teacher clarity is one of those. And one of the things that I found, as I, you know, as I meet with teachers and directors who are in this work serving our multilingual students, really across the country, a lot of times they say to me something to the effect that why haven’t even received any training on this here. I’ve been in this work for this long. And from, like, when it comes to speaking, for example, like I don’t even I don’t necessarily know how to score that how to give feedback on that, per se, I do my best I go with my god, I do some of these things. So I guess I’m curious as to, it feels like, there’s a lot of ambiguity around this and but the way that you talk about it makes it feel so approachable and so easy. Why is there kind of a disconnect in a lot of places do you think?
Tim Blackburn
The why? It is new, right. And it could be you know, that we’re just sort of off roading in the sense that, like, it’s a it’s a novel practice that requires it, you know, make a shift. It’s also time consuming at in the sense that you know, time consuming in the sense that, you know, when you’re building something new, it’s it’s, it can feel a little it can feel heavy. But something that really kind of jostled loose for me and hidden in here and get share, Justin is that you don’t have to do it alone. And we’re talking about John Hattie like, what do you think about like the value of say, our collective work, our teacher collaboration, and actually defining that clear and 10 of learning, and developing the associated, you know, learning scales to, you know, so that we do have, like, the tools to coach students and, and having their own clarity, and owning their own their own learning. You don’t have to do it on your own. And that’s actually something that I wanted to speak to earlier is that, yeah, we do have tools to help me on prime language, you know, between these learning skills, and that you don’t have to do it alone. And actually, some of the best experiences I’ve had, as a say, as a coach at Tigard High School. And in the Internationals Network in New York, it’s, you know, oh, and even in California, too, I’ve seen teachers like come together and use their English language proficiency standards as a foundation for actually articulating those skills once they see that discrete connections between the the focus standards, and they’re in their class learning objectives.
Justin Hewett
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of a lot of good that comes from not going it alone, right, like, trying to find community try and find others that you can do that with, whether it’s in the building or in the district, or maybe it’s not, right.
Tim Blackburn
Yeah, I mean, it is certainly like when I think about trans, like transformative practice and you know, where I’ve, where I have experienced it, it’s, you know, colleagues coming together around a common idea and, and working together for For a solution. Yeah, and I’ve seen so many efforts that have had opposite consequences, because they were their narrative perceived to be top down. Right. But like teams of colleagues coming together, because they care about doing what’s best for their students. That’s, that’s the stuff, right? That’s the secret sauce. And, you know, like when I was very emergent in these practices as a teacher in in the international, international community, high school, that’s, that’s something I think that always kept us moving forward was our, our sincere desire to make the experience coherent. For our students, we didn’t want them to have to guess what Mr. Tim and Miss Jan and Miss Murray wanted, but rather, to clearly articulate, you know, where we’re going and then to give them to the tools to actually monitor the extent to which they’re growing and those target skills. Now, the cool part about that is that it it sets you up into this place where there’s, there’s no more failing classes. If you were to really like, not have success in a particular class, something really went wrong. And that’s because like, the feedback loop between teacher and student is so constant, that, you know, we’re always working to a solution and very specific and very specific class skills. And there’s something when you think about that, in terms of like instructional equity, and thinking about the ways in which that’s differentiated for and responsive to our students, it’s, it’s basically equipped or equipped as what language equips us with tools, to, yes, build metacognition for our students, so that we actually see the connection between, you know, what they are doing and what they are learning and how they are growing. And it also as as a teacher keeps me with, with tools to be an effective differentiator.
Justin Hewett
I love that. I love that. And I love what you shared about as far as, like when you were gathered together doing that work, and like the magic that was in the secret sauce, it reminds me of some PLCs that we’ve been in where they’re using flashlight 360 To listen to their students and they’re calibrating together and they’re listening was such intentionality. And, and it’s kind of a work that they haven’t done before, like this, right? They haven’t done this, it reminds me of that Ralph Ralph Waldo Emerson quote about how the mind once stretched by a new idea never returns to its original dimensions, right? It’s like, oh, this is I am a new person now. And I’m gonna approach this differently. And I have this new outlook and, and I feel like approaching this work with that, with through this lens of clarity, intended learning, clear, intended learning, really. Like, that’s this new idea that stretches the mind. And so kind of kind of take us if you don’t mind, you know, if you have a thought on that, or if you would love to maybe dive deeper into this interpret and analyze evidence?
Tim Blackburn
Well, it’s just that the Emerson is really just, I think, just so appropriate, right? That these ideas, this process, did lead to transformative change in, in my classroom and, and I believe, you know, the same was true for my colleagues on our, on our team, and I really tried to use those, that same sort of experience to share these practices with, with others in places I’ve had the opportunity to serve as a coach. Because they, they do stretch us, right, you know, the these concepts applied, you know, stretch us to try them out in different contexts to see what works or what doesn’t work. But I do think that at the heart of this, really, that’s it’s our students growth and really thinking about that growth across multiple dimensions. That implicit here is that we really have to kind of like, shift our understanding along with all along with our 21st century standards to account for Yes, mastering concepts and to really you know, think about the exploring these disciplinary practices and the implicit connection to you know, language demands that are that shift in so many different ways. And, and in order for me to, to grow in those, those language demands, I have to have the opportunity to do so. Right and the safe space to do that. Well,
Justin Hewett
Tim, I’m loving this conversation, I think you are the man. What I was just gonna do now is just ask you, just to try and to get into more of the how, knowing that we sure got 10 minutes left. Yeah, in a position to that, is there anything else in the kind of the what you want to cover?
Tim Blackburn
No, I, you know, I feel like in terms of the what, you know, like, we’ve covered that pretty well. But the the how I think is, is so important, because it can feel a little daunting, and how to go about designing proficiency scales. And I’m sure that a lot of my colleagues can relate to how it feels to feel like you’re making up language and a rubric. And it was pretty liberating, actually. And, like back in 2013 or so 2013 2014. When are our new English language proficiency standards came out, and I saw that, oh, man, like, these could be a tool to write learning targets and proficiency scales. Because you can really kind of like spin out in it in writing, learning outcomes that are clear to our understand the to our to our students that really like capture the spirit of what the standard is key, and that it is here can be understood by our students. And then, and then secondly, what does progress to that standard look like? And so, you know, typically, in my classroom, I shouldn’t say typically, in my classroom, we work on a four point scale. And this was named scale shared universally, in our school, again, as like an agreed upon practice for coherence. And really thinking about the student experience and you know, working to simplicity, working to clarity. And it was that four point scale, a three is who is was proficient in that scale. Four is highly proficient. A two is emerging. Nor were like approaching, you could use like a are approaching, and one we described as not yet.
Justin Hewett
And like that, because it feels, it feels like a, you know, on either end, either highly proficient, or did you say limited? What was the beginning?
Tim Blackburn
Not yet.
Justin Hewett
Those ones are binary, it feels like Right, like you’re either highly proficient? Or you’re not necessarily or you’re like it, and then it and then in the middle of the middle two, you can just feel, am I closer to this? Or am I, to this end or closer to that end? Right Is that is that the reason to use a four point scale,
Tim Blackburn
we wanted to, basically to offer me enough runway for students that were not yet proficient or approaching proficiency to demonstrate how they are indeed growing to the target. That was really like the big reason behind the four point scale. Additionally, having a four point scale, we found that he could really like differentiate for, you know, the just a myriad skill sets, you know, in our classrooms. For instance, like in my mind, I have like, five students like that. I mean, their names are right there. Their faces are right there. And I can I can see how, when I wasn’t yet differentiating for what they needed, I can actually see viscerally their faces, in the sense that like, how I wasn’t yet meeting, meeting their needs, and I think that having the proficiency scales enabled, you know, like enabled me to actually have a language for kind of like create Getting more, more invitations for their first for my students to apply those concepts and more in like novel ways. All right, so you’re showing me that you’re highly proficient and the ways in which we’re applying these skills. So now let’s create, in like a different application of the skills and receive whenever you see what you can do. And and again, it was it. It was like the simple. The simple fact that I had the tools and enabled me to actually think critically about where each of my students are individually, not just as a collective. And I think for me, that was like the big shift.
Justin Hewett
That is that is in, it’s amazing to me to think of that student that you could viscerally see that you weren’t meeting their needs. Right that you were able to be that in tune with that student. And that still in realize that you were not giving them what they kind of needed at the moment. And so it makes me think a little bit like,
Tim Blackburn
they weren’t the squeaky wheel either, you know, like, and that was part of the problem. But for whom, or if Umar and let’s say that are out there, and I was thinking of you.
Justin Hewett
That’s fine, that’s fine. So it makes me think a little bit about like a teacher that to wanting to approach this work, or a director that’s looking at how do I put this in place? You know, to do this in my district in? And like, what if I’m a teacher, maybe talk to that teacher, that maybe there’s not a system in place in their district? Like, how do you get started doing this?
Tim Blackburn
Yeah. And that’s another thing is that you have to think about, you know, where can we situate this for success? Where do I have colleagues that are really willing to like to take this on and own it, and I confess, like, that’s where I am and Tiger tall, and right now, it’s, you know, working, you know, working with, you know, like specific teams of colleagues that want to jump in with this like, actually, on prior projects, before I became an administrator here in the school district I, I served at Education Northwest. And I got to coach, just a brilliant team of colleagues at Tigard High School that were just really interested in, in designing clear, intended learning, growing and how they design language rich tasks. And then using our language proficiency resources, like the achievement level descriptors in our in our language proficiency standards, or the standards, descriptive descriptors themselves and kind of exploring how to write student friendly proficiency scales, to attach to their learning outcomes, more learning objectives, or learning targets, call them what you will, their clear, intended learning, connected to descriptors for growth?
Justin Hewett
And what if I’m a director trying to, you know, I’m looking at trying to put this into my district. And it’s not something that is in place necessarily, are our teachers who are working with our multilingual students like this is all brand new to them? Like, where would you start,
Tim Blackburn
like with a willing team, like it has to be with like a winning team, either like a department team or a PLC, an interdisciplinary team, but or within a particular grade level at an elementary school, like I would look for a pocket of colleagues that is, you know, really wanting to grow in this specific way. Because then the models for grading are out there, like we grew up in a system where it’s ABCD. Right, and that cuts down to our experience, you know, it is it is as much social as it is cultural as it is personal. And I think that the significant shift here is this finding a is finding grading practices that actually respond to our students. They’re like truly more student centered instead of imposing seven different grading models on on a student’s just by virtue of the lottery of that. That is their their schedule. It’s not fair. Mm. And it’s in, it’s our responsibility as adults to do better. And so, you know, it’s, it’s my hope that by really clearly being clear and what we want our students to know, and to communicate those expectations and to design invitations to design tasks that are language rich, and that elicit and you know, those those target skills, and then give them the tools to actually evaluate the extent to which they’re growing. In my mind, that’s a kind of a path forward and infrastructure for our own classrooms, to bring a really more equitable, fairer, student centered approach for learning.
Justin Hewett
It’s powerful, and I think about I love that idea of like, starting with a small group kind of working through that having this criteria that we’re working through, you know, having our proficiency skills and having these rubrics. What does this look like on? Like, should I be thinking about this in terms of like a weekly basis that I’m trying to approach? Is this a daily exercise and daily work? Like, what can you give kind of a framework on that perspective as to? Oh, it’s
Tim Blackburn
daily interpreting? And it’s daily? Yeah, it’s daily. I mean, the learning outcomes, I always, like, lay out to my students at the start of a unit. Yeah. And then the, you know, the eliciting evidence is daily, I’m listening for it. I’m remarking on it. I’m, it’s in my one on one conversations, you know, consulting with students, it’s in whole group conversations with my students, which then informs my small group conversations with my students, it is constant. That’s the beauty of it is it’s just a neat feedback loop and formed by really, it’s informed by your backwards design, more than anything?
Justin Hewett
And what role would like a flashlight 360 play in that, you know, because what you’re just what you’re kind of describing is more of a I’m there present with the students, I’m here listening and remarking on their on their language, and that kind of a thing? Like, how would a flashlight 360 helping that kind of a situation?
Tim Blackburn
Well, I mean, I think it really has the space for like, if you think about eliciting evidence, right? Think about it like actually, like a number of really crucial steps is, you know, if I’m really aware of what I want my students to know, and be able to do, I’m going to look for images and flashlight, that can either like provide the opportunity for students to connect to their background knowledge. And it’s with, you know, it’s within that that image, and their subsequent responses to that image, where I’m actually going to see like evidence of the schema that they bring into class, I’m going to hear their voices, I’m going to be listening for, you know, for fluency and be really focusing on their ideas associated with the concepts, it could be like a really solid pre assessment, to like to kind of to get a sense of the language that they bring with them already, while also, while also, you know, you know, highlighting some of the opportunities for growth within the skills within the knowledge, and certainly within the other language forms. Finally, here, another connection between flashlight, and the formative assessment practices, you know, under the lens of an analyzing and an interpreting evidence, because, because of the just the, the neat tools that flashlight offers for students, excuse me, for teachers to provide feedback to to students. And so in my mind, you know, there’s really like, three very clear applications of how, you know, flashlight connects to the formative assessment process.
Justin Hewett
I appreciate you letting me kind of ask you about that and kind of talk about that for a second. What about, you know, if I’m that teacher, and I’m just wanting to do this myself in the classroom, isn’t there’s not something that we have in place from a district perspective or process or system? And I’m all kind of on my own running with this. Like, where would I start and where would I like it How do I, what’s my first step, I guess, is lining up those expectations at the beginning of the unit? Like, what would you tell that teacher as far as that first step? And then, and then maybe what we’ll do is we can wrap up for today and move on to act on evidence next time.
Tim Blackburn
Yeah, I think that is firstly, like, maybe just some, like some background reading. You know, from, you know, for instance, like, we didn’t make any of this stuff up. So actually, like looking at, you know, like, understanding language and some of the, some of the, like this specific, you know, like articles, and I’m thinking, even like graphics that all focus on, you know, formative assessment practice or the formative assessment process. It’s also really, you know, helpful to ELS ELLs and the new standards by Aida, Wal K, Margaret Heritage, and Robert Allen quantity for 2015 book that really speaks to, you know, these concepts and motion, right. They don’t actually use like, formative assessment process or form, but they do speak about formative assessment practice. And the value of it is a really neat new book by George bunch, and I used a wall key called amplifying the curriculum. So I would start there, you know, certainly. And then, just on top of that is just, you know, looking for evidence from my colleagues and of leveraging backwards design. Like, how do I see my colleagues like really like thinking ahead and anticipating language development opportunities, you know, really articulating expectations to students in the form of learning outcomes and, and language objectives. And I kind of use that my own formative observations, to broach this opportunity, and really like an invitation for professional learning with my colleagues.
Justin Hewett
I love that. I love it. Tim, this is great. I’m really enjoying this. And I’m looking forward to kind of moving on to that next step on acting on evidence when we get together again, but thank you so much for taking this time. We’ll link to those books and some of those articles in in the show notes. So that way, if anybody wants to review them, that’s a good idea. Yeah, thank you just kind of go to that page and go click in and go find all this stuff all in one place. So anyways, I really appreciate you today, Tim and
Tim Blackburn
Mike Winchester, and thanks for the opportunity.
Justin Hewett
What a pleasure, Kay, we’ll be with you soon.
Tim Blackburn
All right. Adios.
